Author Topic: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.  (Read 13940 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
50 million unborn children have been legally murdered since 1973...

Given the natural failure rate on early-term pregnancies it's hard to see it as a big deal. The primary function of unborn children appears to be to die.

 

Offline Topgun

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
50 million unborn children have been legally murdered since 1973...

Given the natural failure rate on early-term pregnancies it's hard to see it as a big deal. The primary function of unborn children appears to be to die.

at what period should people consider a fetus a human? I don't consider a fertilized egg a human being, but its kind of hard to just pick some random date after conception.

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
at what period should people consider a fetus a human? I don't consider a fertilized egg a human being, but its kind of hard to just pick some random date after conception.

Well there you go, that's the real issue at hand here. Too many people giving too many damn definitions on what time that little cluster of cells can be called a human being befitting all the rights accorded to you and me. If we can sort that out and define it, we can at least remove the legal arguments from abortion and focus entirely on the people who still object to the practice completely. Specifically, we'd be able to use the law to nail those that would limit our personal freedom. That'd be damn satisfying.


Also; pro-lifers killing doctors. Hahahahaaahaha!

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
50 million unborn children have been legally murdered since 1973...

Given the natural failure rate on early-term pregnancies it's hard to see it as a big deal. The primary function of unborn children appears to be to die.

at what period should people consider a fetus a human? I don't consider a fertilized egg a human being, but its kind of hard to just pick some random date after conception.

That's the issue. There's no objective threshold, it's basically down to (fairly arbitrary) human judgment. Consciousness probably doesn't just flip on at some given point, and all assignments of moral value are ultimately instrumental anyway. Barring something I'm not aware of, arguments for humanity on day 30 are basically as compelling for those on day 90 or 180 - though the more developed the fetus is the less comfortable I personally am.

 

Offline Topgun

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
at what period should people consider a fetus a human? I don't consider a fertilized egg a human being, but its kind of hard to just pick some random date after conception.

Well there you go, that's the real issue at hand here. Too many people giving too many damn definitions on what time that little cluster of cells can be called a human being befitting all the rights accorded to you and me. If we can sort that out and define it, we can at least remove the legal arguments from abortion and focus entirely on the people who still object to the practice completely.


People who object to it completely (IE, are against plan b and what not) do it out of ignorance.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
at what period should people consider a fetus a human? I don't consider a fertilized egg a human being, but its kind of hard to just pick some random date after conception.

Well there you go, that's the real issue at hand here. Too many people giving too many damn definitions on what time that little cluster of cells can be called a human being befitting all the rights accorded to you and me. If we can sort that out and define it, we can at least remove the legal arguments from abortion and focus entirely on the people who still object to the practice completely.



People who object to it completely (IE, are against plan b and what not) do it out of ignorance.

Or out of a profound moral certainty. You shouldn't make sweeping generalizations like that.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 09:40:13 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Topgun

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
50 million unborn children have been legally murdered since 1973...

Given the natural failure rate on early-term pregnancies it's hard to see it as a big deal. The primary function of unborn children appears to be to die.

at what period should people consider a fetus a human? I don't consider a fertilized egg a human being, but its kind of hard to just pick some random date after conception.

That's the issue. There's no objective threshold, it's basically down to (fairly arbitrary) human judgment. Consciousness probably doesn't just flip on at some given point, and all assignments of moral value are ultimately instrumental anyway. Barring something I'm not aware of, arguments for humanity on day 30 are basically as compelling for those on day 90 or 180 - though the more developed the fetus is the less comfortable I personally am.

maybe we need a gradient instead of a hard line? For example, after day thirty you can only abort if your life would otherwise be at risk or something like that.

Also, nice badge

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
A single, hard line would be far better, with exceptions allowed for medical complications.

Perhaps when the foetus can survive independent of it's mother? Surely a human is really a human when it's more person than parasite?

 

Offline Topgun

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
A single, hard line would be far better, with exceptions allowed for medical complications.

Perhaps when the foetus can survive independent of it's mother? Surely a human is really a human when it's more person than parasite?
children cannot survive independent of their mother....

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
That threshold is constantly moving up and might someday occur as early as day zero. Unless you mean 'without technological assistance'.

 

Offline Topgun

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
That threshold is constantly moving up and might someday occur as early as day zero. Unless you mean 'without technological assistance'.
in which case most premies qualify.

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
That threshold is constantly moving up and might someday occur as early as day zero. Unless you mean 'without technological assistance'.

That... I hadn't thought of. Good point!

Well, I never said finding that line would be easy.

 

Offline Topgun

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
I still think it needs a gradient based on its development.

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
I still think it needs a gradient based on its development.

But even a gradient must have that point of transition between voluntary abortion and having it prohibited unless medically required.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
Look, in the end I think what you think about abortion simply comes down to what you think about abortion. The whole issue is so intensely frustrating because it bumps up against the fact that there is no objective morality out there for us to uncover. We simply have to locate events (fetus can respirate on its own, fetus displays whatever brain activity, blah blah) and assign some kind of moral meaning to them. Then fight about it.

It's not like gay marriage or something where people can appeal to universal human rights. This is a more profound question about the difference between 'alive and moral' and 'not alive and not moral', and since nature, independent of human interpretation, draws no hard lines between life and nonlife and refuses to assign any morality at all, we're basically making it up as we go.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
leegalize  murder!
50 million unborn children have been legally murdered since 1973...

why limit it to fetuses?
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline Bobboau

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
children cannot survive independent of their mother....

False.

Children cannot survive independent of a parent.

They can survive just fine independent of the female they were gestated in after a certain point.
I am adopted BTW. I survived just fine independent of the person who bore me, (AFAIK) never having physical contact following delivery. (though it's possible they let her hold me or some such, I was with the parents who ultimately raised me within 3 days IIRC)
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Offline esarai

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
If you try to justify the use of deadly force based on the possibility someone is about to slap someone else, that's bull**** and you will be called on it by just about anyone. Indeed if you hit someone before the first blow lands in any other circumstances, that's probably still going to be counted as assault though it might not be prosecuted.

Except in this particular case. Justifiable homicide, as in this law, deals with prevention, not with ex-post-facto reaction to an attack. That is the fundamental problem here, in that it lowers the bar on which you may kill someone to suspicion of intent to assault.

When I read that bill, I see it modifying the original clause to include fetuses, but not actually saying 'it is legal to kill someone on suspicion of intent to abort.'  That seems to me to still keep the bill subject to the constraints higher courts have established, and prevents this law from meaning what everyone thinks it does.

I don't have nearly as much experience in these matters, but I'll try to add my two bits based on the law class I took last semester.  The use of lethal force in the prevention of a felony is one of the messiest parts of US law.  As I recall, in order for it to actually be used as a defense, there must be imminent danger that a reasonable person would be able to perceive.  And the question of what qualifies as 'imminent' is messy, too.  Usually it is interpreted to mean at the moment violence is initiated.  It means if you're caught in an abusive relationship and your partner has explicitly said 'I'm gonna kill you tomorrow,' and you've seen the loaded gun they intend to use, you still have to wait until the gun is drawn in order for it to not be premeditated murder.  You can't up, take the gun and shoot him or her in the middle of the night.

That said, it seems to me any vigilante trying to defend fetuses would get shredded in court, because they would be incapable of intervening right before the abortion occurs in a way that isn't blatantly premeditated.  I feel their justification of use of deadly force would fail, because they'd pretty much have to camp outside the office with a high power rifle or other device capable of harming the building's occupants to intervene, and the amount of preparation that takes makes it perfectly clear that the use of force is not 'in the moment.' 

Also, they'd need to have some *****in' x-ray scopes and **** because most clinics don't have windows in their treatment rooms. 

Personally, this feels like legislative trolling, both against pro-choice and pro-life elements.

And holy christ you guys, 16 new posts while I was typing. :P  A heated topic indeed.
<Nuclear>   truth: the good samaritan actually checked for proof of citizenship and health insurance
<Axem>   did anyone catch jesus' birth certificate?
<Nuclear>   and jesus didnt actually give the 5000 their fish...he gave it to the romans and let it trickle down
<Axem>and he was totally pro tax breaks
<Axem>he threw out all those tax collectors at the temple
<Nuclear>   he drove a V8 camel too
<Nuclear>   with a sword rack for his fully-automatic daggers

Esarai: hey gaiz, what's a good improvised, final attack for a ship fighting to buy others time to escape to use?
RangerKarl|AtWork: stick your penis in the warp core
DarthGeek: no don't do that
amki: don't EVER do that

 
Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.

I don't have nearly as much experience in these matters, but I'll try to add my two bits based on the law class I took last semester.  The use of lethal force in the prevention of a felony is one of the messiest parts of US law.  As I recall, in order for it to actually be used as a defense, there must be imminent danger that a reasonable person would be able to perceive.  And the question of what qualifies as 'imminent' is messy, too.  Usually it is interpreted to mean at the moment violence is initiated.  It means if you're caught in an abusive relationship and your partner has explicitly said 'I'm gonna kill you tomorrow,' and you've seen the loaded gun they intend to use, you still have to wait until the gun is drawn in order for it to not be premeditated murder.  You can't up, take the gun and shoot him or her in the middle of the night.

The problem with the concept of Justifiable Homicide in general is that what qualifies as "Justifiable" varies greatly from State to State. What you described fits the Massachusetts definition perfectly, which is where I'm currently living.

However, I spent my Childhood in Texas, and down there, any stranger who came near your house fell under the term "Justifiable." Even in the suburbs, though such killings tend to only happen in the more rural areas  of central Texas, where the conspiracy nuts and religious sects set up shop, nowadays.

The point is that If, god forbid, this law became official, and some nut did go and shoot up a clinic, if he was in Texas, South Dakota, or any of the other "Republican under god even if it makes no damn sense" states, theres a possibility they could, in fact, use this little loophole to get out of any real punishment.  Meanwhile, the more Northern states, except maybe Maine, would be able to look at it as you have stated.

 

Offline Topgun

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Re: South Dakota apparently wants to Legalize killing Abortion Providers.
children cannot survive independent of their mother....

False.

Children cannot survive independent of a parent.

They can survive just fine independent of the female they were gestated in after a certain point.
I am adopted BTW. I survived just fine independent of the person who bore me, (AFAIK) never having physical contact following delivery. (though it's possible they let her hold me or some such, I was with the parents who ultimately raised me within 3 days IIRC)

That's not any different than taking the fetus out prematurely and putting it into another woman, if we had the technology to do something like that.