Author Topic: Organic ships pack  (Read 3363 times)

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Offline Nohiki

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So, my first attempts at creating models:

Cruiser (Obviously a hades, i was just learning to use wings):





Superdestroyer (Attempted to take the best from Collie and hatshepsut and fuse it together):





So far i only got around the main models and i'm halfway done with turrets, but i have difficulties learning black magic UVmapping and i have no idea how i'm gonna get them from Wings3D to PCS.

If somebody wants to help finish them / finish them himself, feel free to say so. While i am confident i can map and texture them (i just painted some parts to give you the idea how it's supposed to look like - light green is standard bio armor, dark is strenghtened, blue is radiation shielding; I've got tile textures ready but i really wanna learn UV), I really have no clue how to export them from wings to something PCS can use. If somebody can do that it would be cool if you at least told me how, if it's even possible.

 

Offline pecenipicek

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polycounts?
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Offline Nohiki

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Cruiser 13k, no LODs, Superdestroyer 19.99k at LOD 0. Too much? I've got no idea but polys shouldn't be problem as long as textures aren't humongous, right? :nervous:

The SD model is a mess though, i'll have to repair it and it will get slightly little less, but 2k tops.

  

Offline Thaeris

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I can see you're using subdivisions. I think it's great you're trying to get nice, smooth shapes with subdivisions, but I also want to state this:

Subdivisions are difficult to employ properly.

The models you're showing up there are wasting a lot of processing power for the end user due to the simple fact that the details they're seeing are not... really necessary details. Smooth shapes are great, but you really ought to learn how to create those through normal modeling procedures before you start using "automatic tools" like subdivisions.

Personally, I've been close to a point where I could have practically/realistically used subdivisions in some of my models in the past, but I've never done so. The truth is that though subdivisions seem to be a great way at first of enhancing a model's details, they need to be carefully managed, and that takes a skilled modeler. Even if I would have used subdivisions to their full effect on some of my models, I can tell you those models wouldn't have made it into the game they were made for - they'd have ended up as normal map models or the like at best.

To conclude, it's important to learn all of the functions and features of your modeling program, and you'll only do that by making use of the features in question. However, you should also realize where, when, and how to use those features. Subdivision tools are a pretty high-level animal, and you need to be able to definatively tell your program how and what to do when you use those tools. In all honesty, I'd recommend that you avoid using subdivisions until you have a better command over your program or figure out more of the tricks involved in using subdivisions. If you do continue to use subdivisions, I suggest you begin learning how to reduce the level of complexity of the smoothed surface of the given model - this will give you most of the shape you desire while leaving you with a reasonable polycount.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

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"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

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"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


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Offline Thaeris

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Nohiki, forgive the double post, but seeing what is here, I felt that it was a good idea to post a simple tutorial on one practical use of subdivisions. This is a very simple example, but it should demonstrate that subdivisions are somewhat labor-intensive when it comes to optimizing their usage in a model. Responsible modeling is good modeling...

That said, before I start, let me make some things known to you. I'm using AC3D, not Wings. However, I will speak in proper, general modeling terms. This should illustrate what's going on well enough that you ought to be able to see the process involved.

Now, let's start. We shall consider a cube, which everyone loves. Whether or not it is able to accompany you throughout your venture is entirely up to you - but enough of the lame game puns:



Let's say we want to subdivide this thing... unfortunately, doing so at this point in time would probably result in a sphere or an otherwise very-round-thing, and not a rounded cube. Thus, we must must do a simple surface (or face) division/slicing operation on the cube. In an ideal world, you'll see this:



However, we do not need all of those divided surfaces on the cube. They might not hurt the subdivision operation in their current configuration, either. But, let's reduce the surface count to the bare minimums for what we want regardless - if nothing else, it's good practice. In doing this, try to keep in mind that a subdivision tries to evenly smooth a shape while retaining some degree of the base geometry. Thus, we need to give the model to be subdivided all the points it needs to keep at some level. Also, keep in mind that when subdividing a model, sometimes less is more. In other instances, you may need a lot of base geometry to get the desired result.



Now, apply subdivisions to the model until it's smooth:



Alright, it's nice and smooth, and it's just the shape we want. However, if we were to commit the subdivided model to proper geometry right now, we'd be producing a model which would be nothing but irresponsible for most applications - just look at the wireframe!



That said, we need to find a balance between the details we want to see and the details we can afford to see without straining our systems. That said, before commiting the subdivision (this might be AC3D jargon - I'm not entirely sure how Wings deals with subdivisions; however, all I'm stating is that although AC3D might be taking all of those surfaces/vertices on the wireframe into account right now, but model can still be reversed from its current subdivision level back to its base model format we had earlier), we ought to find a means or ommitting as many polygons and vertices as possible while retaining the shape. In the case of this example, we can easily slice this cube into eighths and then take one corner of the shape, reduce its complexity, and then mirror its geometry such that our end model will be a complete, reduced complexity, rounded cube. Here's the corner of the given cube, again, before committing the subdivision:



Now, commit the subdivision...



Just in case there's still some confusion, when I commit the subdivision, that geometry now becomes permanent. The advantage of doing this at this point in time for this example soon becomes aparent - because a corner of the cube is identical on all three of its planes (X, Y, and Z), we carefully select identical numbers of surfces to combine into one. In my case, I select 100 quads (square/rectangular polygons) on each side, combine them into one surface, and then delete the unused vertices on the outer edges of the surfaces. Here is the result:



Now, if we apply this technique to the rest of the corner, combining sections of equal magnitude into singular, properly proportioned surfaces, we can attain the following result. Note how we are careful to maintain a surface of only quads, and how we maintain proper edge loops across the surface. If there's any questions on those terminologies or their importance, feel free to ask.



To finish this project, we mirror the corner along one of its interior sides by one of the axes, such as the x-axis. We then combine adjacent surfaces as well as deleting any vertices which are no longer necessary. We then carry on this process through the remaining axes until we have an optimized model. Here is the final result:



That's a simple example; there might be simpler means of doing the model as shown above, but the point of the exercise was to demonstrate how you can make realistic use of subdivisions. If we compare the final result to that of the initial subdivision, we might see (if we're really picky) a minor loss of detail, but in general, it's so small that no one should notice. More importantly, this new model is of a very reasonable poly count - the sbdivision model by itself was wayyy to complex for intelligible use in most applications. And of course, if you have any questions, I'll answer them as best I can.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline Nohiki

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this is VERY useful, thanks :) Might deserve it's own thread. However i must ask... reasonable polycounts?

Quote from: Wiki
Cruisers/Freighters - 6000-12000 Polygons
Destroyers - 20000-24000 Polygons

And the newest stuff is huge, just look at Hades' new medusa, it's 16k :P (I know my model is still crap, i even found some areas that have flipped the invisible side out :O)

 

Offline Thaeris

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More != better. Instead, concentrate first on getting the most out of the least. Though your ships may be smoothed from subdivisions, in my opinion they really lack depth in terms of design. Please, don't take offense to that either. Instead, next time you start a project, how can you maximize the amount of shape, detail, and form from less in terms of geometry. When you need more, add it, but keep in mind pushing the envelope of your system isn't the best plan, especially for a sim/game which will be a long time coming in terms of being truly effective on a modern computer system.

In closing, I'd state my philosphy of art - make the simple complex, and make the complex simple. Moving between these concepts on any given project will eventually deliver effective results. You don't need a billion polygons and huge textures to have a good model - it's a question of using your assets to their full potential.

However, to answer your question more directly... I'm not sure. To answer that, you have to know what, where, and how many of your assets you'll be employing in a mod. What is the general style of the mod? And such a list of constraints and questions can go on. Also keep in mind that with normal maps, you may not need to resort to enormous polycounts as you can have what amounts to a texture add that extra degree of smoothing, narrow channels between hull plating, etc., to a ship. That said, what polycount do you think would be necessary to make an effective ship?
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline Hades

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Quote from: Wiki
Cruisers/Freighters - 6000-12000 Polygons
Destroyers - 20000-24000 Polygons
That's probably hugely out of date, the hatshepsut and Typhon both break that rule, and my Medusa almost hits destroyers with that rule. :nervous:
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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1) LODs say hi.
2) Poly aren't the main performance draw anyway.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Offline Nohiki

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*stuff*
thanks, that paragraph about art hilosophy was the most eye opening :D

Yes, i know about notmal maps and i planned to use them to generate "scales" on the bio armor (kinda like shadow ships in B5 had). I fail to see how normal maps can help me smooth the whole ship though :-/

About the details, it is hard to make some on ships that are "grown on a farm". they are supposed to be purely functional, the only things extending from the main shape being turret bases for better firing arcs and engines, rest is supposed to be just... smooth :D I'll try to give them another shot in Truespace, i like the tools in it much more than wings and i was able to get much less polies for the same effect there, but UVmapping in TS is PAIN IN THE @$$! xD

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Nice tuturial there, Thaeris, but you weren't clear on how to use normal maps to virtualize smoothness.

Perhaps you meant something like "autosmooth grouping" or smth like that?

I can't, however, but cringe at the model. It's stupid on my part, but hey, what can I say? I went through pains to get my Rakshasa below 10k polys, while making the most of them, using smooth groups to the best of my abilities. And now I see all of these polygons gone to waste ;). And, worse still, I see Nohiki's point, that maps are much more problematic than polys. Gahh. I feel like killing someone now.

Perhaps an update to that "formal advice" about polys is in order?

BTW, Nohiki, those ships don't make me much interested. Perhaps the mapping will make them awesome, but I'm fairly skeptic...

 

Offline Krallis

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Normal maps bake the smoothing detail from a hi-poly to lo-poly.

If your hi poly is smooth then the normal map should pick up on that and transfer it succesfully.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Normal maps bake the smoothing detail from a hi-poly to lo-poly.

If your hi poly is smooth then the normal map should pick up on that and transfer it succesfully.

That's nice, I've seen this first when I gazed upon the wonders of Doom III a good while ago, some 7 years back. They built a model of a million polys and then a model of 10k. The software automatically calculated the differences between them and rendered them as normal maps.

So I know more or less how or why it works. I just don't know where it works. I mean, what kind of software does that? Does 3DStudio MAX do it, for instance? I'd like to know more about this...

 

Offline Krallis

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Maya, 3ds max, Softimage, they can all bake normal maps.
It can be a bit of a headache though, especially fixing any errors.

I personally use XNormal to bake normal maps.
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