[Nemesis6]

Surt is going to probably be a tipping point, it's probably the only town where the people actually like Gaddafi, if they gain control of Surt I think that will basically win them the war, but this might be were one of those morally questionable actions by the rebels takes place, it might be a good idea for the rebels to just simply bypass Surt.

Is there some special story to that city or is the propaganda just heavier in that city because Gaddhafi was born there?

[Flipside]

Surt is going to probably be a tipping point, it's probably the only town where the people actually like Gaddafi, if they gain control of Surt I think that will basically win them the war, but this might be were one of those morally questionable actions by the rebels takes place, it might be a good idea for the rebels to just simply bypass Surt.

Is there some special story to that city or is the propaganda just heavier in that city because Gaddhafi was born there?

It's do with the structure of the Libyan command, a lot of the most powerful men in Libya, and therefore the best protected, are relations of Gadaffi, so you can expect the family stronghold to be well fortified and unwilling to give up the influence that Gadaffi brings them.

[BengalTiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAyCdfOXvec&feature=player_embedded
Found on some other forum....

[Flipside]

The response is better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF7Nfwf_z7Q&feature=related

[Luis Dias]

I can't listen to those two robots. The lines are stupid and obama's fan is stupid. So if that is an attempt to convince anyone it fails.

There were many reasons why going to war with iraq is different from bombing lybia, and the main gist is nothing like "Obama is awesome, so there". There are many lies and exagerations on those videos. But I would only have to point out that the main reasons why people were enfuriated over Bush and Tony wasn't that Saddam was an asshole that had to be taken out. That point was well taken.

The main reason was the big lie, the sheer lack of respect these people had over their populace, in telling us that there were WMDs, that Saddam was "dangerous" because of these, that Saddam was Al-Quaeda related (albeit there are reasons to suspect Saddam did in fact harbor Al-Quaeda members, the evidence given was ridiculous and outright propagandistic), that it "didn't have" anything to do with oil, etc.

People don't like to be treated like children. I eventually grew up about my disliking of the decision to go to war with Iraq (I now see it as a good decision very badly managed), but still it has very little to do with Lybia.

In Lybia, we have an insurrection that was being massacred, broadcasted live on the TV, while the US president was "golfing". There was indeed an attempt to dissuade Ghaddafi, unlike the video lies implied, and Ghaddafi didn't care. There was a UN resolution saying that Lybia lost its right of sovereignity. The arab league agreed.

This time, even france joined the US forces to defeat Ghaddafi. This time it's not the "coalition" fighting the war in land, it's the very own Lybian people doing the foot work against his own "dear leader".

While I think that the Lybian case can be compared with Iraq's, it's very unfortunate to state that they are equivalent, when it's clear for any rational person who has looked to the facts that they are not.

And no, Obama is not awesome. So there.

[Luis Dias]

Oh and this time, Obama doesn't have a second in command that has HALLIBURTON written all over his face while trying to make the case in the tv channell how "Saddam is so very bad and this has noooothing to do with oil and eveeeerything to do with freedom". Puh lease.

[Flipside]

Well, there are gaping holes in both arguments on both videos, and, yes, I agree they are both pretty stupid, but since someone saw fit to post one, I thought I might as well point out that there was a response

[chief1983]

Both those videos are bad, although a little bit funny.  I suppose they do both underscore many of the stereotypes on both ends of the table.

[Nemesis6]

Bin Jawad and Ras Lanuf have both fallen again, this time to to Gaddhafi's forces.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110330/wl_time/08599206216200

Someone mentioned purges earlier in the thread. They did, indeed, upon arriving in Bin Jawwad, start purges against loyalists.

The rebels did not take chances with a town they could no longer trust. After pushing back into Bin Jawad on Tuesday afternoon, the rebels quickly set about searching the streets and homes of the town for hidden troops, mercenaries and traitors. "Alley to alley, house to house," shouted one man at the fighters as trucks veered down Bin Jawad's unpaved, bumpy side streets. He used Gaddafi's own words - an infamous threat from an earlier speech that is often repeated in the rebel-held east. It's meant to mock the Colonel; it's even graffitied on the walls. But as the rebels tread into unwelcome territory, they seem to mean it in much the way Gaddafi did - in a kind of unrelenting and paranoid door-to-door campaign to rout their enemies. "Search the houses," another man shouted, as fighters ran down Bin Jawad's alleys and took up position behind walls. Gunfire and the explosions of rocket-propelled grenades reverberated from within the town. At least one house was set on fire after rebels located a suspected Gaddafi loyalist there.

[Bobboau]

looks like we are thinking about takeing our relationship with the rebels to the next level.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-set-to-give-arms-to-libyans-20110330-1cgbw.html?from=smh_sb

[chief1983]

So again, if the rebels are just as likely to be performing these purges, maybe we really should be taking a much more hands off approach to this.

[General Battuta]

**** I don't even know what to think about this mess, my opinions have 180'd like five times in the last week.

[General Battuta]

****ing world, so complicated

[Bobboau]

it does give me some pause.

[chief1983]

I haven't shifted too far since my initial thoughts when I heard the UN Resolution that had passed on NPR - bloody hell, let them sort it out themselves.  That's all the entire Middle East seems to have wanted the West to do anyway, stay out of their business, so let's stay out of it.  Let's cut the ties with the asshole dictators to save some face, and let their own people kill each other off.  I'm tired of thinking we should be doing anything.

[T-LoW]

[Luis Dias]

I say help the rebelds with the condition that the end result is fair elections, and that the US will make sure that this will happen, and won't stand any "treason" around this goal.

[chief1983]

Even if that were to happen, if the rebels themselves are just as out of control as the loyalists, they're bound to create an equally oppressive society.  I'm starting to wonder if a divided Libya (East/West) wouldn't just make more sense at this point.

[Scotty]

I think there's a finite cap on the amount of sanity in Africa.  South Africa and places like that are hogging all of it.

[Suongadon]

I think there's a finite cap on the amount of sanity in Africa.  South Africa and places like that are hogging all of it.

Of all the threads to laugh till my chest hurt, I never would have thought this would be one.



So, now we're arming the rebels (I highly doubt the debate over it will end with a 'no'), and that means we have to train them, and the airstrikes will have to continue throughout that time.

Wonder how long it is until that 'no ground troops' promise gets replaced by 'seriously, its cheaper this way. *sends in the marines*'