[Topgun]

A shapshifter actually makes the most "sense" since the serpent of genesis is supposed to be satan. But I like the imagery of Archangel Micheal fighting a giant dragon better.

[Flipside]

Not to mention that Angels are frequently shown to be shape-shifters, appearing as columns of light, flames etc. Since Satan was originally of Angelic stock, it would make sense that he could also do so.

[Mongoose]

Heh, the direction of this conversation is reminding me of some of the content in C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy, which is a really good read if you're down with Lewis's Christian-apologeticism-via-fantasy style.

(Also, Battuta, I kind of chuckled that you mentioned my name, because I honestly haven't even voted in the poll yet. )

[NGTM-1R]

... or else? .... for what purpose? Alleviation that justice has been made? How on earth can be tossed to a damning torturing place for all eternity be justified by any kind of principle resembling "justice"? It's like nuking a whole continent because a fly dared sneeze. Totally out of proportion. If there is a "reason", it is not reasonable, by definition. Thus it won't matter.

Your argument is one I was making before you joined these boards, and continue to make.

However it's also irrelevant. If Hell, and by extension God, do exist, then all the moral outrage you or I can summon on the subject are utterly meaningless as power grows from the barrel of a metaphysical gun and you're not going to get a bigger gun than eternal torment. At this point, if this point exists, there is literally but one hope: that there is a workable system which can be used to our benefit.

[Grizzly]

A shapshifter actually makes the most "sense" since the serpent of genesis is supposed to be satan. But I like the imagery of Archangel Micheal fighting a giant dragon better.

Well, if I had to fight Archangel Miceal, I would shapeshift in a giant dragon .

[Luis Dias]

... or else? .... for what purpose? Alleviation that justice has been made? How on earth can be tossed to a damning torturing place for all eternity be justified by any kind of principle resembling "justice"? It's like nuking a whole continent because a fly dared sneeze. Totally out of proportion. If there is a "reason", it is not reasonable, by definition. Thus it won't matter.

Your argument is one I was making before you joined these boards, and continue to make.

However it's also irrelevant. If Hell, and by extension God, do exist, then all the moral outrage you or I can summon on the subject are utterly meaningless as power grows from the barrel of a metaphysical gun and you're not going to get a bigger gun than eternal torment. At this point, if this point exists, there is literally but one hope: that there is a workable system which can be used to our benefit.

Translation: you just hope not to be on the bad side of things. Thus it won't matter if there's a "system" or not. You just hope that if this thing even exists, you don't get to be in hell. I don't see where "order" has anything to do with that.... and that's fine, I agree with the sentiment

[General Battuta]

I think it's kind of rude to say 'translation', implying that what he said was somehow either unclear or duplicitous. :colbert:

[Luis Dias]

I'm just tired, Battuta. I've slept 4 hours a day the past week, and english is not my first language. I actually have to think before writing, and there I was just lazy. "translation" seemed a quick fast way to say what I wanted.

But I get your point

[General Battuta]

It's cool, stuff happens. The implication of that kind of use of 'translation' in colloquial English is usually one of uncovering a second, intentionally hidden meaning that works against the speaker.

[QuantumDelta]

A shapshifter actually makes the most "sense" since the serpent of genesis is supposed to be satan. But I like the imagery of Archangel Micheal fighting a giant dragon better.

Well, if I had to fight Archangel Miceal, I would shapeshift in a giant dragon .

Something more like this;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-851600521180419270#
!

[NGTM-1R]

Translation: you just hope not to be on the bad side of things. Thus it won't matter if there's a "system" or not. You just hope that if this thing even exists, you don't get to be in hell. I don't see where "order" has anything to do with that.... and that's fine, I agree with the sentiment

Actually I'm going to say that you've gone one step beyond what Battuta says and are being actively duplicitous as, considering I've already agreed with your argument, I'm ****ed either way. It's much too late for me.

So no, I don't hope not to be on the bad side of things. I've already selected an option that precludes that. (Again if anything we are discussing actually exists, which by saying I am selecting yet another option that will result in the exact opposite of what you're saying.)  My concern is for humanity as a whole. It will matter to them if there is a system or an order to it; if they are completely arbitrary in selecting who does and does not go to heaven or hell then you have literally no control over your own fate.

On the other hand if there is a system, you at least have a choice. And a means to save yourself.

[QuantumDelta]

Assuming you understand the system.
The correct system.

Unless it's completely relative and not something you need to be aware of.

[NGTM-1R]

Assuming you understand the system.

I'm a secular humanist, don't even try telling me "it's not something we can understand".

[General Battuta]

Any secular humanist should be well aware that the possibility exists that there is information, especially in cosmology, which may be permanently lost to us.

[NGTM-1R]

Any secular humanist should be well aware that the possibility exists that there is information, especially in cosmology, which may be permanently lost to us.

Yes. But not in an ongoing process.

[General Battuta]

Well, if the information is dispensed by notional omnipotent beings I'm not sure we can expect to have any access to it. Everything we've been delivered could be a lie. It's not a particularly useful concept in terms of providing utility to afterlife-handling strategies, though.

[Luis Dias]

Exactly, that is why the only correct philosophical position is one of truth relativism, regarding all metaphysics as "fantasy". And NGTM, I get your point about humanity, sorry if I was rude.

[Mars]

Negative sir.

regarding all metaphysics as "fantasy"

=/=

the only correct philosophical position is one of truth relativism. . .

A humanist can still have some very strong black and white morals, anyone who values conciousness for that matter. For instance , that killing another sentient being is bad.

[Scotty]

Exactly, that is why the only correct philosophical position is one of truth relativism, regarding all metaphysics as "fantasy".

Oh, come off it.  Condescension has no place in a philosophical discussion.

[Charismatic]

Iv read a lot of crap sofar. Not one pro hell response. Come on guys, if theirs a Christianity related argument, someones got to get me. Gotta have one pro God\christianity response in the lot.

I believe in hell. It is not 'just to scare people into behaving' or to 'keep people inline'. It is real. Its the place Satan will be sent as a prison for him and his followers.

God is merciful and just. Being flawless he has some leeway with the whole topic of salvation. His logic is above our own.

Salvation is hard to find, and is on the narrow road. Thats not saying 95% of ppl are doomed to hell. Salvation is found in beleiving Jesus is Gods son who was sent to die for your sins. But those who have never heard of Jesus I suppose will be 'exempt' as apart of God being merciful and just.

Hell is not just a concept. Christianity is not flawd.

And before you all jump all over this post, taking turns T-bagging it, please come up with a clear concise list of all topics mentioned u'd like to collectively ask me.

EDIT:
Page 1 rebuttals.

...But I think it's about love.  So **** Hell, if God really is a compassionate person, he wouldn't send people just because they loved people and didn't hear Jesus tell them to.

Hell is for those who do not believe in Jesus (after being told about him). God does not send ppl to hell for loving or not, thats not the point. Death and hell are punishment for sins. Sins cannot stand before God, thus cannot be in heavon.

I think a lot of what christanity is was made for the time when it orginally started and some time after that. I think this is an example of it being off with the time. but that means that culture would determine the validty of religion and isnt that sorta counter to the whole point of religion?
...

The bible never came with an expiration date. Gods words stand firm through all time. Culture does not determine if the bible is true or not. And its not about getting ppl to join the christian religion. It is about personal belief in Jesus dying for your sins. Accepting his payment for your sins cleanses you of your sins.

No one will burn, hell is like a super-bogeyman, its "existence" is merely for putting people into good behavior.

.....Alternatively, you can think like this: if you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing.

Wrong sir. Christianity is not about good works, or earning your way into heavon. It never says that. Jesus preaches aganist that himself at one point. Its not, dont sin or sin less-- we all have already sinned. Were born into sin as the bible phrases it. Were already in need of Jesus sacrifice.

Actually my biggest complaint about Christianity is the existence of hell.

For example, why hell? If God is reputedly described as some perfect daddy who can rescue everyone, sadly, God is also portrayed as a "God of Justice". And what is that "Justice"? Why, that is a declaration of only "few" mortals who shall be able to be "saved", as described in the above passage.

Furthermore, a critical point in Christianity is that Jesus was supposed to have "died for our sins". If He truly did, then it's somehow surprising that Earthly logic goes on, people do bad stuff again and again.

There was no hell before Satan screwed things up. Why are their few saved? Hard to say. This world is sorta satans domain for now. He has put a veil over many peoples eyes from seeing 'the light'. Beleivers are 'set apart' from tis world. Not of this world.
Were still humans, with human logic. Its how we are. Born into sin and a sinful nature ever since Adam. Adam set that in motion. Bible says to repent and turn from your sin when you see it. "Die daily" to desires of the flesh. Constant battle. I think peter himself mentioned doing what he didnt want to do and not doign what he did want to do.