[ShadowWolf_IH]

I was reading this and debated on chiming in, and then I thought "what the hell?"

I'd like to make two points, the first is that the Christian concept of hell goes hand in hand with the wrathful God of the old testament.  Kinda makes me glad that he mellowed out after having a kid.  We went from people being turned into pillars of salt and wiping out the earth by flood to being hippies and saying "hey man, just love each other and all is cool."  Maybe it wasn't having a kid that did it, maybe it just happened at the same time that God put gel inserts in his sandals and is finally gellin'. 

I don't consider that to be blasphemy, God created us in his image so he has a sense of humor, he's probably rolling around laughing his ass off on some cloud over that quip.

The second point.

If you believe that God exists, and I do in some fashion, then you really need to give serious thought to a few things.  Things like When Cain killed Able and fled where did he go?  He fled to a city of Man.  Where did these other men come from? or, If God is all knowing, and all seeing, why create Satan in the first place knowing the outcome? or Wouldn't it have been easier if he hadn't given us a free will?

Let's look at the last one.  We have a free will.  We can choose between right and wrong.  We can choose wrong.  We can choose to do wrong.  We can choose. 

God created us to love and worship him, but gave us a free will with which to decide if we wanted to.  We were not made to be forced to love him.  Yet if we choose not to, we are eternally damned.  Not entirely accurate.  In the Bible it says "It is better to have not known me than to have known me and turned your back."  To me this doesn't say "If you've heard of me, you better love me or else."  It says, "to have known me."  I know who Obama is, but I don't know him.  I know who my boss is, I've spoken with him, but do I know him?  No. I don't.  Should I be punished for believing in God, but exercising his gift to me and choosing not to get to know him?  I don't think so, and according to the Holy Bible, neither does he.  Remember, man is fallable, and so then are the words he writes.  Why am I not mature enough to read the books that were removed from the Bible?  Why am I not deemed mature enough?  Is it because by reading those I may be enlightened a bit, and with enlightening of the masses comes a loss of power to the organized church?  I don't believe in the church, or in religion.  They are just man made traditions on how to worship.  I believe in God, but I think I've justified why I don't believe in hell.

[Goober5000]

However it's also irrelevant. If Hell, and by extension God, do exist, then all the moral outrage you or I can summon on the subject are utterly meaningless as power grows from the barrel of a metaphysical gun and you're not going to get a bigger gun than eternal torment. At this point, if this point exists, there is literally but one hope: that there is a workable system which can be used to our benefit.

[Mars]

However it's also irrelevant. If Hell, and by extension God, do exist, then all the moral outrage you or I can summon on the subject are utterly meaningless as power grows from the barrel of a metaphysical gun and you're not going to get a bigger gun than eternal torment. At this point, if this point exists, there is literally but one hope: that there is a workable system which can be used to our benefit.

How do you figure? Moral outrage, being (from my perspective) a very important aspect of my ego, and presumably that of others as well, is very important; it doesn't matter if anything comes of it or not.

Assuming no afterlife, if Stalin dying without facing the consequences of killing millions didn't make him right.

[Rodo]

Oh, how I love these threads, I really do!

[Nuclear1]

...But I think it's about love.  So **** Hell, if God really is a compassionate person, he wouldn't send people just because they loved people and didn't hear Jesus tell them to.

Hell is for those who do not believe in Jesus (after being told about him). God does not send ppl to hell for loving or not, thats not the point. Death and hell are punishment for sins. Sins cannot stand before God, thus cannot be in heavon.

That wasn't my point.

I mean anyone and everyone who didn't live in Judea in the first century AD.  If God sends people to Hell for the petty reason of not believing that one person is the besterest of them all, despite that many other people have said the gist of what Jesus said at some point, then is he really compassionate?

Muslims who believe in charity as a religious duty, Buddhists who believe in a sacred goal of ending all human suffering, or even pantheists who are tolerant of other faiths, they're all going to Hell because they didn't believe in a divine Christ (even through incredulity or through not being exposed to Christianity at the time), even if they were upstanding, moral people?

The problem I've always had with the "nobody comes to the Father except through me" beliefs is that people take it far too literally.  "Through me" could also very well mean through following his teachings of just being a good person. 

[General Battuta]

However it's also irrelevant. If Hell, and by extension God, do exist, then all the moral outrage you or I can summon on the subject are utterly meaningless as power grows from the barrel of a metaphysical gun and you're not going to get a bigger gun than eternal torment. At this point, if this point exists, there is literally but one hope: that there is a workable system which can be used to our benefit.

Let me guess, that smiley links to information on Mohammed

[QuantumDelta]

It basically says 'if you ain't christian you ****ed.'

[Scotty]

lol Paul.  One man's opinion on scripture canonized and taken as fact.

[Marcov]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/8-real-photographs-that-prove-hell-exists-earth/

Take note, however, there may be less fundamentalistic paths in interpreting the Bible, and I say I'd take those...

[Mars]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/8-real-photographs-that-prove-hell-exists-earth/

Take note, however, there may be less fundamentalistic paths in interpreting the Bible, and I say I'd take those...

PROOF!

[Luis Dias]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/8-real-photographs-that-prove-hell-exists-earth/

Take note, however, there may be less fundamentalistic paths in interpreting the Bible, and I say I'd take those...

.... because your choice of interpretation will sway God's wrath when you die and be judged.

Then again, you might just piss him off trying to "reinterpret" his frakkin message.

Thread lightly

[Marcov]

NEWS FLASH!!! HEAR YE!!! SO MANY ARE GOING TO HELL EVERYDAY!!! OMG OMG OMGGG!!!

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billions_of_people_going_to_hell.htm

WARNING TO ALL BORN-AGAINS: Below is a message of mine that expresses how particularly annoyed I am by your fundamentalistic beliefs. My apologies. But now the realizations of these 100% literal interpretation of yours in the Bible is something I find irritating and illogical, or so I think. I still respect your beliefs, in the way that I try to respect all faiths throughout the Earth. But seriously.

There are an estimated 6 billion people in the world, that’s 6,000,000,000 people!  The average life expectancy of a person is estimated to be around 70 years of age.  With all the natural disasters, people smoking, the global aids epidemic, terrorism, drug overdoses, liquor related deaths, accidents, murders, war, et cetera. I’m sure the average life expectancy is much lower. 

Visit a cemetery sometime and you’ll be surprised how many people have died at a much younger age.  Nevertheless, let’s suppose that the average person lives to be 70 years old.  6,000,000,000 divided by 70 equals 85,714,285.  This means that 85,000,000 people, on average, die every year.  If we divide 85,000,000 by 365 days in a year, this means that an average of 232,876 people are dying every day in this world.  Are you shocked?  You'd never think from listening to the daily news that so many were dying. 

I’ve never heard anything like this on radio or TV, but it's a fact.  Every day in this world, 232,000 people fulfill their appointment with death.  Could you imagine reading the front page of a newspaper and seeing something like... “232,000 PEOPLE DEAD!”?  It happens every single day my friend!  The reason you’ll never see something like this is because it isn’t glamorous.  People like to hear about the one person who was shot to death, or the CEO that jumped out of his office window. 

The news media isn’t interested in how many people are dying around the world. There are natural deaths occurring all over the earth every second, 24 hours a day, but we never hear of them.  Deaths resulting from crime, war, disaster, sickness, injury, poison, disease and starvation are seldom heard of from other countries.  We only hear of the tip of the ice-berg! 

You can’t disagree with the math! 6,000,000,000 people will all be dead in 100 years! (ok, maybe 99.9%).   

How many people live to be 100?  NOT MANY!   By dividing 70 into 6,000,000,000, we found that 85,000,000 humans will die every year on average (more or less from year to year, but all will be dead in approximately 70 years).  We also found that dividing 365 days into 85,000,000 means that an average of 232,000 humans die every day.

 Now, let’s say that one in ten people are genuine born-again Believers.  We are clearly told in Matthew 7:14 that few people ever make it to heaven!, “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT” (Matthew 7:14; Luke 13:23,24).  How tragic!  How horrible!  Honestly, I would be very surprised if more than one out of every hundred people are truly saved and on their way to Heaven!

Consider the billion people in China who know not the Lord Jesus Christ!  Consider the countless hundreds of millions of Arabs (Islamic Muslims) who worship Allah and the prophet Mohammed.  Consider the billion Catholics around the world that worship Mary and are trying to earn their way into Heaven through the keeping of the Seven-Sacraments and good works. 

On and on, religion and more religion!   Countless billions of people are trusting in their religion to save them instead of the Lord Jesus Christ.   Surely, nine out of ten people in this wicked world are bound for a Godless, eternal hell.  I have no doubts whatsoever that 90% of the people in this world are going to Hell.  Why?  For one simple reason friend, they do not have the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Their sins have not been forgiven.  We estimated that 232,876 humans die every day on average. 232,876 minus 10 % equals 209,588 people that perish into hell fire and destruction every single day that passes.  So roughly, 200,000 HUMANS PLUNGE INTO HELL FIRE EACH AND EVERY DAY!   We also see that 23,287 people (10%) make it to Heaven each day on average. 

The number of people which die every day can’t be denied!   You can argue concerning the percentage of people going to Heaven verses Hell; however, Matthew 7:14 clearly teaches that only a "FEW" people will enter into Heaven. "MANY" are going to Hell.  As I mentioned, I'd be surprised if more than 1% of the population are born-again believers. 

If you don't believe the Bible, then you had better hope to God that your right; If you believe the Bible "just enough" to obey it and call upon the saving name of Jesus Christ for salvation and the forgiveness of sins--you will be safe!   We all must die and it’s guaranteed that were not going to escape death!   It’s just a matter OF TIME!  Prepare to meet thy God! 

Salvation is not found in religion, but in a person—Jesus Christ!

Let's think a bit further on this shall we...

If 232,876 people die every day (on average), then how many people die per second?  Well, 232,876 divided by 24 hours = 9,703 people die every hour.  9,703 divided by 60 minutes = 161 people die every minute.  161 divided by 60 seconds = 2.6 (we'll say 2) people die every second.  Can you imagine this?  2 people die in this world every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year!  It's adds up to 85,000,000 people a year. 

Let's assume that I'm right concerning the percentages.  Let's just assume that only 1% of the population is truly born-again.  This means that 2,328 people enter into Heaven each and every day.  And sadly, 230,548 people plunge into hellfire each and every day. 

What percentage of people do you believe are truly saved?  If you say "ALL," then you are obviously NOT a believer.  1st John 2:22 teaches that anyone who denies Jesus Christ is a LIAR. That means all Islamic Muslims are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Muslims deny that Jesus ever died on a cross. There are an estimated 1,300,000,000 Muslims in the world.

All followers of Judaism are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Messiah. That's what the Bible teaches in 1st John 2:22. It's Jesus or Hell.

The question is: Do you believe that the Bible is God's Word? I do. By the way, the King James Bible is the only reliable English Bible that hasn't been corrupted by Satan.

There are another estimated 1,000,000,000 Catholics in the world, all who believe that Mary is able to give salvation, that the Seven-Sacraments are essential to salvation, that the pope is God upon the earth, that the priest has power to forgive sins and that good works can get them into Heaven.  The Bible teaches that we are saved solely by Christ's righteousness, which is through faith in His precious literal, physical, blood that washes our sins away (1st Peter 1:18-19; Hebrews 9:12,24; Revelation 1:5; Romans 3:25).

I witnessed to a Catholic man once who said he didn't believe Jesus was almighty God.  He's not a born-again believer. How sad!  Most of the world has been deceived by false religion.  Jesus is almighty God (John 1:1,14; John 10:33; John 14:1-3; 1st Timothy 3:16; Colossians 2:9; Revelation 1:8).  Yes friend, billions of people are going to Hell.  Each and every HOUR, roughly 9,500 people die.  Thousands of those people go straight to Hell.

If you've never received Jesus as you personal Savior, please do so now.  John 1:12, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” Being saved is very easy.  Salvation happens when a person acknowledges their guilt of sin, coming to God on the basis of being a hell-deserving sinner; believing on Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, to forgive their sins.  Acts 10:43, “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

Please understand—all one's good deeds, keeping of the Ten Commandments, water baptism, church membership, holy communion, penance, confirmation and praying are A ROAD TO HELL if you place any trust in them to save you. Salvation is solely by Christ's righteousness; and not by any self-righteousness of our own.  Titus 3:5, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...” God DIDN'T give us the Ten Commandments to earn our way to Heaven; but rather, to show us our sinful condition and need for a Savior. Galatians 3:24, “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” Amen!

Don't rely upon anything or anyone other than the Son of God, Jesus, to forgive your sins.  Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”  Whosoever means YOU!!!  “Call” means “to appeal unto” i.e., “to go to Jesus to be saved.”  If you come to the Savior, He will not turn you away (John 6:37).  Isaiah 1:18 teaches that God will forgive the vilest sinner who comes through the Son of God. All that God the Father asks is that we come to Him through His dear Son for forgiveness (John 14:6).

Salvation is not a prayer!  Salvation is not a decision.  Salvation is not an experience. Salvation is a supernatural act of God in response to one's faith in Jesus Christ. Eternal life is freely given (Romans 5:15), freely offered (Romans 10:13), and freely received (Revelation 22:15).

To be saved, you simply stop trying to work your way to Heaven; and you rest in the finished work of Christ.  That's what the Sabbath Day pictured in the Old Testament. Jesus is our Sabbath, in Whom we rest for salvation. The only way to Heaven is to come as a guilty sinner and cast one's self at the feet of Jesus for forgiveness.  Romans 4:5-6, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.”  Did you read that? ... HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!

You don't need to stop living in sin to be saved. Only a hypocrite would teach such a thing. Who can stop sinning? How much sin do you have to give up to be saved? Can anyone give up all their sins... sinful bad habits included? Even Jesus asked in John chapter 8, who is without sin among you?  Salvation is not about us giving up our sins to be saved. Salvation is about us admitting that we are guilty, hell-deserving, sinners and therefore need a Savior to redeem us. Jesus has the nail-scarred hands and feet. Jesus is that Savior.

Then, when we are saved, God will work in our heart to make the necessary changes. A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance; and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith. Salvation is solely by Christ's righteousness (Romans 10:3-4; 2nd Corinthians 5:21; Matthew 6:33).

I find this message particularly annoying especially for the fact that Mr. Stewart, a good example for the general view of most Baptist Christians, believe that Catholicism generally involves worshipping Mary. I am a Catholic and I'm eager to refute that. Although we seek guidance in Mary and the saints, we still believe that Christ is our main Savior. So your argument is empty and pathetic.

Also, use your dang head, man. I mean, seriously, there are literally a massive number of faiths scattered across the globe. How are you sure that only one may be correct? How are you SURE????!!!

Your tremendously literal interpretation of the Bible reflects a medievalistic appearance of yours, when friars ruled over lands, fattened themselves and burned to death those who oppose them. I'm sorry to say, I hate that belief.

I challenge you. Try going into a satanistic moslem (oh no, how about Buddhist?) cult and find out for yourself; there are thousands of ways in how religion can be interpreted. Yeah. Believe me. All religions except your extremely fundamentalistic burn-the-witches-to-death Baptist faith are for Satan, right? Jeezuz is the only Guy who you should worship, right? Heh. Are you sure?


Sorry to say however I'm still confused with a portion of my own faith .

Summary:

"Youith mustith worshipeth Jesusith orith youith wilith dieith inith eternalith fireith becauseith theith Bibleith theith onlyith goodith bookith thatith existeth inith thiseth worldith saysith soith youith Catholicsith areith gonnaith goith toith Hellith becauseith you worshipeth Maryith ohith Iith dontith wannaith prayith thatith dangith rosaryith it'sith demonicith onlyith weith areith goingith toith Heavenith andith 99.9999%%%ith ofith theeth worldith isith goingith downith manith seriouslyith!"

[ShadowWolf_IH]

All I can say that he not only needs to read Hebrews 5:12, he needs to understand it on a deeper level than most.  I'll save you the trouble and explain it. 

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.


It basically means that while this guy should be teaching, he again needs to be taught.  He is like a baby who needs milk to nourish him, because he can't digest meat yet.  This guy is obviously trying to digest the meat of God, but isn't ready.  He better drink milk. 

It's been my experience that most people who "know" God are so wrapped up in the fact they are doing God's will, that they forget what they are doing and instead follow a will of their own.  I don't claim to know God, and in this capacity I have met very few who actually have the gift of teaching.  To teach in this capacity you have to be able to see another point of view, and not discount it because it offends you. Far too many Christians fall short in this.  To discount a person's point of view because it is distasteful is nothing more than vanity.  To force your point of view on someone else is also vanity.  I always find it ironic that we are told to be at peace, yet on Sunday in any given town you will find someone screaming at the congregation and red in the face.  I know that when I am screamed at I go into a defensive posture, mentally, physically and spiritually.  Once again, attacking someones beliefs will do nothing but force them to defend, and trust me on this one, you will never believe in something deeper than when you are forced to defend it. 

I am a Christian.  I am also a man who struggles with faith.  I love science and because of it I have a problem with my own faith.  I know, it's all but an oxymoron, but at least it's honest.

I think that is a lesson for the author of that article to learn.  Telling someone that they are wrong isn't the answer, showing them light is. There are other problems I have with this whole concept, but those are for another time.

[Flipside]

Well, the way I see it, it's never been about what book you read, or what you call your God, or what direction you face when you pray, that's just Humans fulfilling their love of ritual and predictability. It's about who you are as a person.

To my mind if there is any force in the Universe who has power over Life and Death it would be an entity like God. If there is a sentient, judging God up there and he sees people Usurping him, making the life death decision for him whether He likes it or not, killing people that He created in His name, or passing Judgement on people (which implies that those people don't trust God's judgement in the first place) for following a different faith, then I suspect they will be in for a very unpleasant surprise when their time comes.

[Marcov]

Which "Guy" are you referring to?

[ShadowWolf_IH]

Mr. Stewart.

[Marcov]

Hmmm...I'm wondering if most HLP members are either ultra-liberal Christians, or atheists.

Religion may be different from Faith. Religion is man's effort to organize and spread their respective Faiths, while Faith is believing in one's own idol, whoever he may be. Many liberal Christians trust Faith more than religion because of the terrible wars and events that took place as a result of super-fundamentalism and different views. Therefore, I'll call myself a liberal Christian.

Actually I had some thought of you (ShadowWolf) referring to me as the criticizer. Frankly, I was a criticizer, and am a criticizer. Not in a horrible way, unlike that of the fat friars during the Crusades, but I'm quite opposed to the beliefs of super-fundamentalists. I'm no atheist, and am quite as opposed to atheism as to fundamentalistic religious views.

But, as I told you, I am, to a certain extent confused about my own Faith. Though Faith is actually widely controversial (as are all topics throughout the Earth) I choose to remain believing in Faith.

Personally, however, I was taught to believe that the Bible was "free from spiritual error" but am convinced that that may not be always the case. For example, do we sin whenever we see an attractive female? No, I don't think so. Many liberal Christians refute that portion of Matthew as a "writing of the author, and most probably not a teaching of Jesus". Honestly, I don't think anything is a sin unless it causes disorder and the like.

[Retsof]

Hmmm...I'm wondering if most HLP members are either ultra-liberal Christians, or atheists.

Those of us that aren't just sit back with some popcorn and watch the show.

[Flipside]

I don't have a 'religion' as such, if you are referring to rituals or symbology, that's just decoration anyway, but the question as to whether I believe in God is probably a far harder one to answer.

[Marcov]

Aren't atheists supposed to doubt the existence of God or any supernatural/paranormal being?