[Buckshee Rounds]

Playing through WiH I noticed that all three of the UEF Admirals are "Fleet Admirals". Is this their actual rank or a positional title? If the former it sorta suggests there could be other admiral rank UEF officers.

[Dilmah G]

Whilst Fleet Admiral is a Naval Rank, to my understanding I think it's safe to assume those three are regular 4 stars. I'm not totally in the know WRT to this, so my word isn't gospel.

My understanding of what Fleet Admirals actually do makes me think that it's highly unlikely that those three hold that rank, especially since I don't believe more than one person can hold that rank.

EDIT: Spelling.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Whilst Fleet Admiral is a Naval Rank, to my understanding I think it's safe to assume those three are regular 4 stars. I'm not totally in the know WRT to this, so my word isn't gospel.

My understanding of what Fleet Admirals actually do makes me think that it's highly unlikely that those three hold that rank, especially since I don't believe more than one person can hold that rank.

EDIT: Spelling.

I get that it's the uber-rank, which is why it's confusing there are three of them. I was thinking that as a "title" maybe they just throw it around, like a WWI British Major-General getting called "Field Marshall".

[Dilmah G]

Yeah, I think it's far more likely that it's thrown around as a title, in the same league as Commander-in-Chief: Jovian Rim Fleet or Officer Commanding - GTVA 4th Fleet kinda thing.

[MatthTheGeek]

This is, the three UEF fleets are pretty separated hierachy-wise, despite the very close collaboration between them and the possibility to get reaffected from one fleet to another. Remember that the UEF is a Federation, with 3 main states with their own fleet. There is no unified UEF fleet and hence no UEF Fleet master or anything like that. You've got three Fleet admirals, with their respective fleet, none of the three command the others.

[NGTM-1R]

Once you manage to control the node and you have driven back the GTVA from Sol, put 4 Naras at max range of the node. Negates the advantage of meson bombs.

Then you get leaky on the fighter strikes, and might as well not be accomplishing anything. In a very real sense as long as the node remains open the UEF has no actual path to victory.

In fact I think that's their real problem. The various responses of the UEF leaders to the issue at hand don't hold out any real hope of winning. Calder's offensive operations are probably the best answer, in that he is at least attempting to impose his will on the enemy and retain the initiative, but in the end all the answers offered so far are hollow. They offer tactical solutions but no answer to the strategic problem.

[Snail]

The GTVA could have piled ten or twenty destroyers into the system at the start of the war, and the result would've been a mutual bloodbath, with the UEF having the subspace tracking advantage required to drop their bomber wings right down destroyers' throats, the GTVA shock-jumping everything it could find, and the two faction's air wings shredding each other. It would have been over soon, and the GTVA probably would have been victorious, but the cost would have been staggering, including, most likely, the best of the GTVA's equipment and personnel.

Am I the only one hoping this happens later in the war? That would be a legendary set of missions.

[PsychoLandlord]

Then you get leaky on the fighter strikes, and might as well not be accomplishing anything. In a very real sense as long as the node remains open the UEF has no actual path to victory.

In fact I think that's their real problem. The various responses of the UEF leaders to the issue at hand don't hold out any real hope of winning. Calder's offensive operations are probably the best answer, in that he is at least attempting to impose his will on the enemy and retain the initiative, but in the end all the answers offered so far are hollow. They offer tactical solutions but no answer to the strategic problem.

This is exactly what I was going for earlier. And, having continued to look at it, the only way the UEF can "win" is to metaphorically not play. If the node remains open, the conclusion is inevitable.

[MatthTheGeek]

Then you get leaky on the fighter strikes, and might as well not be accomplishing anything. In a very real sense as long as the node remains open the UEF has no actual path to victory.

In fact I think that's their real problem. The various responses of the UEF leaders to the issue at hand don't hold out any real hope of winning. Calder's offensive operations are probably the best answer, in that he is at least attempting to impose his will on the enemy and retain the initiative, but in the end all the answers offered so far are hollow. They offer tactical solutions but no answer to the strategic problem.

First, fighters can cover the node. They have much better subspace mobility than capships, so they can instaflee if a meson bomb arrives. Unless I'm mistaken, the Meson bomb still needs a few seconds to detonate, and anyway using a meson bomb to blow a few fighter wings that can be replaced by fresh reinforcements a few seconds later is a total waste.

Second, if the GTVA can't send anything else than fighter and bomber wings through the node, then the fighters are stranded and without logistical support in an hostile system. Then their threat becomes nothing more than that of Gefs with better tech. The UEF can easily live with that.

[PsychoLandlord]

Second, if the GTVA can't send anything else than fighter and bomber wings through the node, then the fighters are stranded and without logistical support in an hostile system. Then their threat becomes nothing more than that of Gefs with better tech. The UEF can easily live with that.

Or they could, you know, use those fighters for their intended purpose in the event of such an assault, tying up defenders, disrupting formations and such, clearing the way for corvettes and destroyers to come through the node and reestablish a foothold.

[Hades]

Once you manage to control the node and you have driven back the GTVA from Sol, put 4 Naras at max range of the node. Negates the advantage of meson bombs.

You're assuming the UEF can drive the GTVA from Sol, because at the conclusion of WiH, one fleet is almost totally decimated, another is getting to that point, and the last fleet is just sitting around Sol, the GTVA forces are mostly still intact while the UEF was hit hard.

[Snail]

Yeah and the GTVA have forces already in-system, taking control of the node is one thing, holding it against forces from the bottleneck is another thing, holding it against forces from within the system is another another thing.

[NGTM-1R]

First, fighters can cover the node. They have much better subspace mobility than capships, so they can instaflee if a meson bomb arrives. Unless I'm mistaken, the Meson bomb still needs a few seconds to detonate, and anyway using a meson bomb to blow a few fighter wings that can be replaced by fresh reinforcements a few seconds later is a total waste.

Second, if the GTVA can't send anything else than fighter and bomber wings through the node, then the fighters are stranded and without logistical support in an hostile system. Then their threat becomes nothing more than that of Gefs with better tech. The UEF can easily live with that.

Spoken like a man who has no conception that seconds can and do matter. A few seconds, you say, no time at all. A few seconds is all it takes to deploy a complete strike package in FS. Never forget that the rapidity of subspace travel works both ways. In a few seconds the GTVA can deploy a sixty-fighter strike to engage the Naras and damage them enough to require yardwork to repair.  Eventually you run out of Naras to stand the guard at the node because they're all in the shop, and you're ****ed. (The UEF OrBats released have suggested they don't have terribly many to begin with; four Naras is the complete complement of a fleet and after everything that's happened in WiH may well represent half of the total number of them in Sol.) The GTVA has demonstrated that it is able to carry out very tightly timed operations before (Into the Lion's Den) so forcing an entry and and exit both via the use of Meson Bombs for a fighter strike group is entirely reasonable.

Second, comparing a GTVA strike fighter group to the Gefs is hilarious. You are, in essence, saying that militia (if you can even call the Gefs that, and arguably they're a step below militia) is equivalent to professionals. The Gefs don't have Helios bombs and Nyxes, nor do they have the training or discipline of a GTVA fighter group. An equivalent number of GTVA fighters is a threat an order of magnitude greater than a Gef force.

[Rodo]

But you've got to agree that holding the node is a key factor, Shivans know this and act accordingly.
If the UEF had a few more forces (which I think they do, but are keeping in the wait) they could pull a stunt like that after getting rid of the fleets in Sol.

[PsychoLandlord]

The Shivans can afford to waste hordes of ships on a costly Node Blockade. The GTVA, and certainly the UEF, cannot.

[MatthTheGeek]

In a few seconds the GTVA can deploy a sixty-fighter strike to engage the Naras and damage them enough to require yardwork to repair.

I don't think a node can sustain that many ships at a time. Remember all that has been said about the Delta-Serpentis node as a bottleneck for the GTVA forces in Sol, which is the very reason they have to use logistic ships in the first place. Ships would have to come in waves, that can be dispatched by the superior UEF fighter force more than easily. And Naras can take care of themselves against fighters and bombers more than well enough. Especially given the global inefficiency of tevs bombers. And especially since in that situation they would be covered by a substantial number of Sanctus and Karunas + fighter complements. You'd need beam barrage to break such a formation, and any beam-carrying ship would be nullified before going anywhere in rage, especially given the bottleneck property.

Given the amount of damage the Gefs have been able to put during WiH, for example the fact that they would have disabled and disarmed a fully armed and refitted Hatshepsut-class destroyer if it hadn't crash-jumped. I don't think we can really consider the Gefs as "a step below militia" after such a show of power. They are numerous, coordinated and well-armed for a non-military organisation. You can argue that they have been supplied by the GTVA and the UEF that both wanted to use em to weaken the other, the point still stands.

So I think it's perfectly fair to compare them to what the surviving elements of multiple waves of tevs fighters through a well-defended node would become after they disperse and hide in the system to conduct guerilla warfare. Because that's basically the only remaining option for the GTVA in that scenario.

[Luis Dias]

The bottlenecking at the nodes is a very interesting key strategy narrative resource available.

[headdie]

The Shivans can afford to waste hordes of ships on a costly Node Blockade. The GTVA, and certainly the UEF, cannot.

errrr, i have to disagree with you there in regards to the GTVA, Kings Gambit and End Game are strait up blockade missions and in The Romans Blunder there should have been a blockade in place

[Snail]

The bottlenecking at the nodes is a very interesting key strategy narrative resource available.

Except it doesn't work, since there are GTVA ships already in the system!

[MatthTheGeek]

Yes. There are GTVA in system, that have to rely to logistic ships and captured stations to sustain themselves. They have done everything they could to minimize the bottleneck issue of the node, and this is made pretty clear in the fluff.

Besides, remember that GTVA is in system because they took control of the node even before the UEF started to react, and that they have fortified it ever since. We're talking about a situation here where the GTVA would have been pushed back to DS and the UEF would be holding the Sol end of the node, and would be the one fortifying it.

EDIT:

The Shivans can afford to waste hordes of ships on a costly Node Blockade. The GTVA, and certainly the UEF, cannot.

errrr, i have to disagree with you there in regards to the GTVA, Kings Gambit and End Game are strait up blockade missions and in The Romans Blunder there should have been a blockade in place

Those are situations where the NTF was running the blockades. Keep in mind that they lost their entire fleet in the process. The GTVA can't afford that amount of losses, for multiple reasons that have also been made pretty clear in the fluff and that are also the reason the UEF is still standing after 18 months.