[Mars]

History says that gaining control of the population after a total war scenario is not hard. (Post WWII German, Japan, and Italy demonstrate this)

[Hades]

But that would only contain the "threat" of ubuntu. They still can't get access to most of the infrastructure of Sol without the cooperation of the locals.
Granted, much of the ship manufacturing (and probably mining) facilities are in orbit, but it would be one hell of a job to ferry enough workers from GTVA terretory into Sol to run those orbitals, not to mention that they'd need some place to live and supplys. Ferrying all those people between Delta Serpentis and Sol twice a day is just ludicrous.

In all likelihood, the facilities either have integrated living quarters and/or have an accompanying installation dedicated for the workers, considering ferrying the workers from Earth to the facilities would be inefficient and a decently long trip too.

[The E]

History says that gaining control of the population after a total war scenario is not hard. (Post WWII German, Japan, and Italy demonstrate this)

History has nothing at all to say about someone occupying a nation with 9 billion+ inhabitants.

[Pred the Penguin]

But with all the dead civilians, how are the GTVA supposed to convince the Sol populace that they are better.
Just throwing questions out there, and this is getting way off-topic.

Oops!

[Droid803]

By killing everyone who says otherwise, of course!

[General Battuta]

But with all the dead civilians, how are the GTVA supposed to convince the Sol populace that they are better.
Just throwing questions out there, and this is getting way off-topic.

Oops!

They aren't. If the UEF government acquiesces its populace will either follow or revolt, and the hope (probably backed up by projection on the GTVA side) is that they'll follow.

[Liberator]

Wait a sec.  You are talking about a populace who willingly follow the commands of a group of people who are basing their whole governmental strategy on the ravings and hallucinations of a 3 pilots, a known madman and a 120 year old Vasudan.  What gives you the idea they would revolt against a government that monitors your every action and thought and forces you to look at kittens and god knows what else AGAINST YOUR WILL so that your mental processes will conform to what they want.  I mean seriously, it's a wonder that the UEF has lasted 18 months against the GTVA(who are not much better mind you)

[-Norbert-]

What universe are you talking about here, because Ubuntu not at all what you just wrote.
For the kitten for example, the text goes something like this "Detecting agitantion in the reader. Do you want to see a soothing picture?" not forces at all.
The don't watch every little move every person does either. They monitor the economy on a level that leaves individuals out of the equation and use that to improve said economy.
They didn't form their entire government (first off, the Elders are NOT the government) after any hallucinations. They based their system on economy, science and education.

Unless that was a very poor attempt at a joke, I strongy suggest you actually read the backstory before making comments on it.

[General Battuta]

Ugh. You were banned from GenDisc because you didn't read what people said to you. You've made this exact post already and been corrected on it. I'm going to correct you one more time and then I expect to never see this foolishness again.

The 'whole governmental strategy' of the UEF is based on sophisticated neocapitalist economic models (running on vast simulation farms) which allow them to nudge a free market economy into stable prosperity, a program of constant infrastructure and education expansion which produces a skilled workforce and a vast merchant marine, and a brilliant scientific community with the funding it needs to make breakthroughs.

They do not monitor any action or thought whatsoever, the kitten picture was a piece of software Noemi installed on her personal hardware out of her own free will much as people today buy iPhone apps, the day-to-day governance of the UEF is conducted by elected officials in a healthy democratic system, and there is no program of mental hygiene or thought control or anything.

I don't know what the **** this AGAINST YOUR WILL **** is, the meditation widget even made it pretty clear it was an optional thinking by presenting a 'yes/no' option. Christ.

I need you to acknowledge this post or get out. And no it wasn't funny if it was a joke, you already got yourself banned from one subforum for **** like that.

[Liberator]

My apologies, I had a brain fart.  Though in my case it would probably be more like a corpse blowing open, but either way, I'm sorry.  And I'd love to read the tech room for BP again.  But I redownloaded it and when it's the selected mod, the launcher goes nuts and 3.6.12 crashes on pilot select.

[Snail]

Looks like Liberator has been reading too much GTVA propaganda.

[Mars]

Seriously though - the GTVA, were they to crush the UEF military completely with 5 battle groups, wouldn't have to lie much to make the point that the Shivans would have utterly destroyed Sol, where the GTVA would have persevered.

Imagine Earth was under threat of alien invasion, and that you live in a small country focusing on social programs. Now imagine a large country invades because they want your nation to help with Earth defense rather than internal social problems. Imagine they have legitimate pictures of aliens blowing up whole planets easily, and they themselves had experienced the loss of an entire star to these invaders (with footage).

With even a small propaganda machine, its easy to see how easily the Tevs could make a case for themselves to the people in the Sol system. "Ubuntu could not protect you" and the like.

[Snail]

Seriously though - the GTVA, were they to crush the UEF military completely with 5 battle groups, wouldn't have to lie much to make the point that the Shivans would have utterly destroyed Sol, where the GTVA would have persevered.

Imagine Earth was under threat of alien invasion, and that you live in a small country focusing on social programs. Now imagine a large country invades because they want your nation to help with Earth defense rather than internal social problems. Imagine they have legitimate pictures of aliens blowing up whole planets easily, and they themselves had experienced the loss of an entire star to these invaders (with footage).

With even a small propaganda machine, its easy to see how easily the Tevs could make a case for themselves to the people in the Sol system. "Ubuntu could not protect you" and the like.

Ubuntu citizens are not too likely to turn on the government that has led them into what appears to be the greatest era of prosperity in human history. They're likely to believe more in the great towering skyscrapers on the Moon and the inhabitation of Mars than some obscure, distant video clips of aliens blowing stuff up. Furthermore, the stuff they have seen blown up were blown up by the GTVA, a clear aggressor (in their eyes) and not some random alien race who they've heard nothing of for 50 years.

[The E]

Which, as the UEF would point out, proves exactly nothing, since the GTVA, for all its military prowess, knows nothing at all about the Shivan strength or shivan strategic objectives. It can't even reliably defend humanity against the displayed shivan strength at Capella. Thus, their ability to blow up ships is quite possibly completely irrelevant when it comes to the question of how to deal with the Shivans. But that is a different discussion, one we had ages ago already.

Then there's the simple fact that Ubuntu isn't meant to protect anyone from shivans. As Battuta pointed out, its objectives are economical, social, and scientific, not martial.

Ubuntu citizens are not too likely to turn on the government that has led them into what appears to be the greatest era of prosperity in human history. They're likely to believe more in the great towering skyscrapers on the Moon and the inhabitation of Mars than some obscure, distant video clips of aliens blowing stuff up. Furthermore, the stuff they have seen blown up were blown up by the GTVA, a clear aggressor (in their eyes) and not some random alien race who they've heard nothing of for 50 years.

I would believe that the average Ubuntu citizen's reaction to seeing footage from Capella would be more along the lines of "Yeah, Shivans are ****ing scary, we knew THAT already. Why haven't you come up with a better solution than 'Shoot them till they stop glowing' yet? What is that you say? You don't have the R&D infrastructure to do that because you poured every bit of money you can spare into the fleet? Well, that is a quite a conundrum, isn't it?
Hmm?
Oh, yes, of course we'll help you build up defenses. Of course, that would have been a bit easier if you hadn't smashed our fleet and its infrastructures, but since you obviously have more experience in such matters, we shall defer to your superior judgment.
Oh, by the way, it would really help if we could get the Elders back. Cos, you know, dem Bookworms be badass."

[Ravenholme]

Well, given that the GTVA has weapons that are effective against the Shivans and more specimens of said foe to R-eng (Hallo Beam weapons), I think they've got the R capacity, and Sol in their pocket would increase the D capacity available to them by... a lot.

Sorry, any way you look at it, the UEF is a loser's bet. The GTVA (with a more mild leadership) is the only horse worth backing against the Shivans/Vishnans.

[The E]

That's my point. They have badass ships and good weapons. But they have no clue what they are facing, they are preparing for a fight against an enemy with unknown resources and unknown (but vastly superior) technological capabilities. In all fights against the Shivans, the recurring theme has been that whatever humanity can come up with, the Shivans are superior. The conclusion that "Shoot them till they stop glowing" just isn't going to cut it in the long term is just as logical as yours.

[Snail]

From my point of view, the problem with siding with the GTVA is that... The UEF are the protagonists. This is probably for a reason. Most protagonists win in the end...

[Scotty]

Not if we get BP:Tev out the door before BP3 is released.  Then they're both protagonists.

[Mars]

They're protagonists in WiH, but not in AoA but I'd have to say that I personally have more emotional attachment to the GTVA, since every campaign (in the FS universe) I've played, except for this year, has them as the protagonist.

The way I see it:
The UEF fights emotionally - either completely damning violence, or going on a quest for vengeance (See Pawns on a Board of Bone). Yes the GTVA is going up against an unknown force in the Shivans - but they're doing their best to gain tactical and technological ground. Remember what Sam Bei said "Even if we die today, we will embody the true spirit of a GTVA pilot, fighting against the odds to protect those we love." That appears to be the philosophy of the Tevs in WiH - an honorable death against the odds is a fine one (very similar to the Berserks in Viking epics) that's the very thing that makes them a superior force to the UEF armada - a willingness to take losses and die, and a willingness to use every available technology to take down as many enemies as they can.

Even with the example of Capella, the tech room makes it very clear that it was a tactical miracle pulled off by the GTVA.

[NGTM-1R]

From my point of view, the problem with siding with the GTVA is that... The UEF are the protagonists. This is probably for a reason. Most protagonists win in the end...

Our protagonist is also possibly certifiable.