[headdie]

Amongst many ideas spinning around my head at the minute is one for a post Capella setting within a year of the collapse of the Capella nodes.  A small but significant part of the back story is Admiral Petrach being instructed to lead a strategic review of the GTVA fleet based on his experiences in the NTF conflict and the Shevan incursion looking at the effectives available equipment, the tactics employed, and the training/capability of GTVA personnel.  This is important for the story because I want to use it for a justification for the fleet structure used and I want it to appear in some form in the Intel section of the tech room.

The problem I have is that for an in depth review that supposedly takes 2-3 months I can only come up with 8 points of criticism and 8 recommendations,  some of which seem a little weak.  I also thought that this would make an interesting discussion for why certain events happen in game the way they do.

below are the points i have managed to come up with, I have hid them in spoiler tags so if anyone wants to form their own thoughts independent of mine they can

Spoiler:

Criticisms
1    the Hecate was a poor replacement for the Orion as the pinacle warship with it's anti capital armament being unable to effectively engage corvettes and larger directly                                                   
2   The Deimos while a valuable fleet asset and made for a more effective line support ship than any cruiser was to light to tacke heavy destroyers without signifficant fighter/bomber support                                                    
3   The fleet structure at the time of the Capella incident was split with the Terrans usinf fleets and the Vasudans using Battle groups, this needs unifying                                                   
4   The Shivan incursion exposed a worrying focus on the Lucifer which committed the Aliance to a fixed approach leaving them exposed to new Shivan tactics                                                   
5   The GTVA Command had a dissregard for the potential for shivan escalation in the nebula which exposed the alliance to shivan counter attack                                                   
6   GTVA Security Council ignored warnings that the destruction of the Knossos might not collaps the nebula node                                                   
7   GTVA command placed too much emphasis on the GTVA Colossus                                                   
8   On a number of occasions GTVA command acted in the NTF's favor in order to persue objectives with questionable benefit      

Recommendations

1   The Orion class need to be maintained as a heavy destroyer untill a suitable replacement can be brought online
2   The GTVA needs to invest in a new destroyer class to replace the Orion in a heavy destroyer role
3   An intermediate class/classification between Corvette and Destroyer needs developing
4   While effective in some situations the Sobek has been overshaddowed by the Deimos class and a companion/replacement design with more emphasis on anti capital firepower should be considered
5   The GTVA Armada should have a unified fleet structure with the largest sub division being fleets and battle groups being used for sub divisions of fleets
6   A more flexable solution to massive shivan warships should be divised, the second incursion proves that we are a long way from going toe to toe with the shivans
7   Beam cannon research should be more heavily invested in
8   the creation of a planned "last resort" system to seal jump nodes should be created

                                             

[Dragon]

Nice.
Also, it seems that Darius also noticed these flaws in GTVA tactics, since in BP, all these recommendations are adressed (except 3, but Corvettes get a bit bigger anyway, so a new class isn't needed).

[Trivial Psychic]

How about:

Spoiler:

Further stratification of fleet classes.  Hecate class (as stated) did poorly as a frontline destroyer but effectively as a carrier, prompting the development of a fleet carrier class, serving as flagships for each fleet.  The heavy destroyers take on the roles of primary engagement destroyers, as the Orions did in FS2 (as you stated).  I also propose the development of a light destroyer, useful for conducting individual missions beyond primary support of main fleet assets, most useful for SOC.  Give it good reactors, some AAA and defensive weapons, and a single nose-mounted heavier beam (though perhaps not as strong as a BGreen) for rapid shock-jump attacks.  There would also be a number of dreadnaughts, like the Colossus' little sisters, which are primarily heavy-beam carrying ships, with little or no fighterbays.  These would be built for rapid response to any Sathanas incursion by attacking with two or three at a time by jumping in on of its lesser-armed vectors, then being able to jump out again should it turn to bring its main guns to bear.  I still consider the Deimos to be of use as fleet support, and the cruiser class as the oft-touted anti-fighter defense role.  As you also stated they'd need an emergency contingency for node-collapse if it became necessary.  They should therefore create a purpose-designed node-buster ship, with just enough destructive power to collapse a node.  Give it primarily AAA defenses and of course entirely AI-controlled during its run to the target.  It would basically be one BIG cruise missile with defensive weapons... kinda like the "Dreadnaught" missile from ST:Voyager... but nowhere near as AI-sophisticated.

[Mars]

Spoiler:

Further stratification of fleet classes.  Hecate class (as stated) did poorly as a frontline destroyer but effectively as a carrier, prompting the development of a fleet carrier class, serving as flagships for each fleet.  The heavy destroyers take on the roles of primary engagement destroyers, as the Orions did in FS2 (as you stated).  I also propose the development of a light destroyer, useful for conducting individual missions beyond primary support of main fleet assets, most useful for SOC.  Give it good reactors, some AAA and defensive weapons, and a single nose-mounted heavier beam (though perhaps not as strong as a BGreen) for rapid shock-jump attacks.  There would also be a number of dreadnaughts, like the Colossus' little sisters, which are primarily heavy-beam carrying ships, with little or no fighterbays.  These would be built for rapid response to any Sathanas incursion by attacking with two or three at a time by jumping in on of its lesser-armed vectors, then being able to jump out again should it turn to bring its main guns to bear.  I still consider the Deimos to be of use as fleet support, and the cruiser class as the oft-touted anti-fighter defense role.  As you also stated they'd need an emergency contingency for node-collapse if it became necessary.  They should therefore create a purpose-designed node-buster ship, with just enough destructive power to collapse a node.  Give it primarily AAA defenses and of course entirely AI-controlled during its run to the target.  It would basically be one BIG cruise missile with defensive weapons... kinda like the "Dreadnaught" missile from ST:Voyager... but nowhere near as AI-sophisticated.

What you're describing is pretty much the Blue Planet GTVA, although I support the. . .

Spoiler:

node-buster

Now what in those spoils anything?

[NGTM-1R]

Some of these do not logically follow, most notably the claim of an overemphasis on the Lucifer. There's nothing in fleet movements or doctrine which makes this sound probable. Even the Colossus, whose cutscene is the only time the Lucifer is directly referenced, is clearly not designed for the actual purpose of fighting the Lucifer. It's a linebreaker for blockades.

Other issues are your commentary on disregard for potential Shivan escalation; this assumes they had indications beforehand to disregard. They may well not have. We have nothing to point to unequivocally either way.


The problems with GTVA doctrine as I see them...

Insufficiently unified deployment. The GTVA commits assets piecemeal and in too small numbers to too many engagements. For a force designed to fight the Shivans, who have never been much for caring about being totally outgunned and outnumbered, this makes little sense. Stronger, more full-featured strike packages and more unified deployment of fleet and fightercraft assets would do much.

Unwillingness to commit. A Shivan invasion should, quite frankly, be a throw-everything situation, but the GTVA did not commit more than a fraction of its forces to the Nebular theater. Even accounting for a defense in depth, I would have expected to see ten destroyers deployed to deal with the Sath, not three. Holding strategic reserves does not serve a purpose in a struggle with an enemy who is both vastly more powerful than you and threatens your very existence. If you don't win now, there isn't going to be a later.

[Mars]

Hmm. . .

The way I see it, we don't know the size of the GTVA destroyer force, or how quickly they can be moved.

I will condemn their tactical doctrine as far as escorting the destroyers that we DO know of. We know the GTVA has a fairly expansive cruiser and corvette fleet - yet the Aquitaine (FLAGSHIP OF THE BATTLEGROUP) is never once seen with an escort. The Agrippa, rather than defending the flagship, escorts the repair transport (THE REPAIR TRANSPORT) if the Agrippa had been present at the beginning of the mission, it would have been far less precarious.

Similarly, the Vasudans are known to have something like 5 corvettes in the Psamtik's battle group, yet the second Konossos is discovered, the Psamtik is sent in alone.

The Hedetet blockades the node in King's Gambit alone.

The list goes on and on.

[MatthTheGeek]

Spoiler:

Criticisms
1    the Hecate was a poor replacement for the Orion as the pinacle warship with it's anti capital armament being unable to effectively engage corvettes and larger directly                                                   

Recommendations

1   The Orion class need to be maintained as a heavy destroyer untill a suitable replacement can be brought online
2   The GTVA needs to invest in a new destroyer class to replace the Orion in a heavy destroyer role

No need for that. Use the Hattie.

Even accounting for a defense in depth, I would have expected to see ten destroyers deployed to deal with the Sath, not three.

Logistics. Nuff said.

[AtomicClucker]

The GTVA sorely needs "mobile" fleet assets for the explicit purpose of rapid response. Consider it a smaller group of fine tuned vessels that serve as a vanguard before you deploy Orions or Hatties or can plug a breach in a blockade if some suckers survive the Mjolnirs. Sorta like of the Blue Planet Diomedes class, but a strike force instead of singular corvette.

[Marcov]

I'll answer your comments specifically.

Spoiler:

Criticisms
1    the Hecate was a poor replacement for the Orion as the pinacle warship with it's anti capital armament being unable to effectively engage corvettes and larger directly

Actually I believe Volition didn't put much emphasais on Hecate firepower since it never actually engaged a worthwile opponent. I've previously said that the only time true Hecate firepower was demonstrated was when the Aquitaine engaged the Tiamat and Abaddon (Moloch corvettes), but they're just corvettes. I would've wanted it to prove its worth by engaging an Orion destroyer, comparable in size yet supposedly "less heavily-armed" than the Hecate. On that, I recommend improving the Orion by extending its anti-fighter armament, then you have a perfect destroyer that can resist flanking techniques, unlike the Hattie (which, like the Ravana, only really focuses firepower on her starboard arc).

Spoiler:

2   The Deimos while a valuable fleet asset and made for a more effective line support ship than any cruiser was to light to tacke heavy destroyers without signifficant fighter/bomber support

Frankly, I think the corvette is an excellent design. It can handle multiple cruisers whilst not taking too much punishment (considering it has 2.5 times the armor of some of the heaviest GTVA cruisers around), and can bring in a motherfrakkingly devastating anti-fighter/bomber firepower. Also, based on FreeSpace tactics, I think the ultimate destroyer-killers are either bombers or the Colossus. The GTVA fondly brings in a much bigger ship than their target, such as when they deployed the Psamtik to handle 2 NTF cruisers, or the Colly to handle the Repulse.

Spoiler:

3   The fleet structure at the time of the Capella incident was split with the Terrans usinf fleets and the Vasudans using Battle groups, this needs unifying 

IMO seperating Terrans and Vasudans in different fleets is fine. It's quite hard for officers from different races to handle their respective fleet, primarily due to cultural differences. An Alliance is enough. Did the British, Americans, and Russians fight in mixed armies during the World Wars? Not usually.

Spoiler:

4   The Shivan incursion exposed a worrying focus on the Lucifer which committed the Aliance to a fixed approach leaving them exposed to new Shivan tactics   

I think it was the Lucifer that the GTA and PVE really feared during the Great War. I mean, it was INVINCIBLE. NOTHING could stop it in hyperspace during that time, perhaps even a massive amount of warships combined with several dozen wings of bombers. Plus, destroying the Lucy is the key to destabilizing any Shivan threat, since they get "disorganized" when their command ship dies. And now, with beam weaponry, the GTVA just needs a warship that surpasses it in size and strength - that's why the Colly was made.

Spoiler:

5   The GTVA Command had a dissregard for the potential for shivan escalation in the nebula which exposed the alliance to shivan counter attack     

I can agree with that. Perhaps they shoud've sent numerous scout wings to explore the nebula, though I believe this is just useless given the said size of the system (10-20 lightyears). Command wasn't aware that it was heavily infested with Shivans.

Spoiler:

6   GTVA Security Council ignored warnings that the destruction of the Knossos might not collaps the nebula node

When was that ever announced? I don't recall of any.

Spoiler:

7   GTVA command placed too much emphasis on the GTVA Colossus   

Like I said, they built the Colossus to fend off Lucifer-class warships, which is the most effective way in weakening a Shivan incursion. Also many members argue that the 20-year Project Colossus also consisted of designing new, powerful weapons and technologies, which led to the making of a new fleet.

Spoiler:

8   On a number of occasions GTVA command acted in the NTF's favor in order to persue objectives with questionable benefit     

Quite true. One of my previous theories was that the GTVA actually WANTED Bosch to communicate to the Shivans, but hiding the info from the masses so the leaders won't get kicked out of their palaces for doing what they think is right.

Recommendations

Spoiler:

1   The Orion class need to be maintained as a heavy destroyer untill a suitable replacement can be brought online

Personally I view the Orion and the Hatshepsut as the two top destroyers of the GTVA; while the Hattie can bring in a lethal amount of concentrated firepower, the Orion can handle a wider area of defense with its evenly-spread beams.

Spoiler:

2   The GTVA needs to invest in a new destroyer class to replace the Orion in a heavy destroyer role

Like I said, the best plan would be to devise an Orion with better anti-fighter capabilities.

Spoiler:

3   An intermediate class/classification between Corvette and Destroyer needs developing

We already have one. It's the NTF Iceni; faster than any warship ever constructed, and has the armament, fighterbay, and nearly all the hitpoints of a destroyer.

Spoiler:

4   While effective in some situations the Sobek has been overshaddowed by the Deimos class and a companion/replacement design with more emphasis on anti capital firepower should be considered

I've never really done a keen observation on exactly how deadly against capitals the firepower of the Sobek is, but I can say it probably has enough.

Spoiler:

5   The GTVA Armada should have a unified fleet structure with the largest sub division being fleets and battle groups being used for sub divisions of fleets

We never really know the exact classification on ship groupings throughout the FreeSpace series.

Spoiler:

6   A more flexable solution to massive shivan warships should be divised, the second incursion proves that we are a long way from going toe to toe with the shivans

With 80 Juggernauts plus the great possibility of a massive complement of a probable several hundred destroyers, thousands of corvettes, and tens of thousands of cruisers and probably over a million fighters and bombers, I doubt the GTVA will be able to scracth the paint on the Shivan War Machine. They just can't do it. They don't have the resources and fleet assets to handle such a powerful foe. Even with great tactics the Shivans are just TOO MANY.

Spoiler:

7   Beam cannon research should be more heavily invested in

I don't think we have any reference pointing to just how much effort the GTVA did in the development of beam weaponry. The Shivans seem to be able to secretly adopt whatever the technology of their adversary is, and more; how did the Shivans suddenly gain better beams in every warship, and flak guns?

Spoiler:

8   the creation of a planned "last resort" system to seal jump nodes should be created

Isn't the Bastion and Nereid enough for the job?


Hmm...now I begin to realize how interesting BP treated Freespace weaponry, and in the way they improved it.

[General Battuta]

In BP this was called the Threat Exigency Initiative (well, okay, that was the program resulting from said review), but there's absolutely no reason you couldn't run with it in a totally different direction and come up with something new and cool. BP hasn't actually added much non-ship hardware to the GTVA, for instance, so nobody's really explored new directions primaries and secondaries might go.

One of the big conclusions in BP was that the fighter force wasn't mobile enough and bombers were all terrible, so the emphasis in convoy and battlegroup defense moved to a split between very light fast screening forces and ships with a huge number of Trebuchets. Bombers didn't get that much love (yet) because the burden of destroying enemy warships was moved to warships.

[Marcov]

One funny thing I remember about BP is that the battles are quite one-sided; with a supposed greater-tech adversary, it's amusing to see a wing of 3 or 4 fighters take down multiple Shivan fighters as demonstrated in the first mission...also reminds me of the SOC loop where the player's team takes down over 30 Shivans, but Snipes couldn't die...though this may be since it was on Easy mode...

[General Battuta]

One funny thing I remember about BP is that the battles are quite one-sided; with a supposed greater-tech adversary, it's amusing to see a wing of 3 or 4 fighters take down multiple Shivan fighters as demonstrated in the first mission...also reminds me of the SOC loop where the player's team takes down over 30 Shivans, but Snipes couldn't die...though this may be since it was on Easy mode...

There's a pretty clear reason for this if you read the techroom, and play with Fury AI, and don't play on easy

[headdie]

Battuta with you talking about BP's angle on this it got me thinking about something I was doing but not really consciously thought about is what should the post review fleet look like.  The angle I was aiming for I think is:
A fleet with greater flexibility and more able to defend themselves ships
steer away from a one solution fits all problems, probably angling towards a bomber or fighter lead solution so capital ships don't have to directly engage Shivan warships of a superior nature.

on some points in my op
criticism point 6 that is apart of my own fiction loosely based on the briefing for A Flaming Sword Start sm2-10.fs2 "For strategic and scientific reasons, we will not attack the portal with the main guns of our warships"

recommendation point 5 is based on the fact that you only ever hear Vasudan formations being refereed to by a numbered battle group and never fleet # while Terran formations are usually referred to by their fleet number, but you also hear on several occasions phrases like the Aquitaine and its battle group or the Colossus and its battle group which makes me think that a Vasudan battle group is comparable with a Terran Fleet which is an unnecessary complication no matter how minor.

Also Marcov on your last point regarding the same point in my op, the Bastion and Nereid always gave me the impression that this was a quickly conceived plan in reaction to the events developing in Capella, the only justification given that it might work was the collapse of the sol node and no scientific research type justification was provided to suggest there was any confidence beyond that, also the delivery method was haphazard I firmly believe if it was a plan devised prior to the event of FS2 there would have been a specially devised delivery system in place.

[NGTM-1R]

Logistics. Nuff said.

No. Far from enough. This is a force which has been structured, trained, and equipped for the sole purpose of fighting the Shivans. They must be prepared to give battle anywhere, at any time. If they lack the logistical tail to do this, somebody ****ed up on a massive scale. There's absolutely no evidence the GTVA is that comic-opera inept.

Indeed the simple truth is that you could surge more ships into the battlefield even if you'd outgrown your logistical tail, because a warship must be capable of independent operations for some period of time simply to be useful. Some, most notably the Soviet army, have built their entire military paradigm around this effect: a Soviet division was designed to last for a single 48 hour period of combat. This timeframe was selected because it was believed the division would be rendered non-effective by then.

[Mobius]

Even the Colossus, whose cutscene is the only time the Lucifer is directly referenced, is clearly not designed for the actual purpose of fighting the Lucifer. It's a linebreaker for blockades.

Uhm, I would like you to prove that. Especially the "clearly not" part because, as far as I can say, we don't have necessary canon info to say that.

[NGTM-1R]

Uhm, I would like you to prove that. Especially the "clearly not" part because, as far as I can say, we don't have necessary canon info to say that.

Fair enough.

The Colossus' armament layout is all the evidence I really need. If this were a ship truly designed for an open-space assault or a blockade role (i.e. stopping the Lucifer), it would have its heavy weaponry arranged in such a way as to maximize its effectiveness against a single target or within a single arc of fire.

Instead the Colossus' armament is positioned to provide all-around coverage enabling it to fight in many directions at once. This is not a ship designed for a single maximum-effort attack; it is not a ship designed to fight in an engagement whose terms it has dictated. While suitable for an open-space guard role, the Colossus represents too great an amount of combat power (and is far too scarce) to be used in such a fashion. It also lacks the fighterbay space to have been designed for system control; despite its sheer size it carries a relatively small fightercraft complement and two destroyers will deliver more fighters than the Colossus.

The all-around armament, tied to a ship of such sheer size and ability to absorb damage (note the redundant engine systems, widely spread positioning of main armament, and anti-fighter weapons positioned to provide a strong defense to both), means there there is only one role the ship could be optimized for: linebreaker. By sheer firepower and ability to absorb damage the Colossus can be first through the node, batter down an opposing destroyer blockade, and overwhelm local fightercraft opposition with its own fighters, securing the node area long enough to allow the deployment of other fleet assets.

[headdie]

I suspect the all round field of fire is so that when it is engaging the lucifer/other(super)destroyer it is able to defend itself if someone tries to take advantage of it being committed by jumping it with another destroyer

[Mobius]

The speaker made a great deal of the Colossus Vs. Lucifer comparison during the cutscene, and the beginning of said cutscene is all but focused on the Shivan threat.

I don't really think the Colossus was created to serve as linebreaker. The recently born GTVA needed a way to protect its own controlled space from Shivan attacks, not the key element to invade Shivan space and eradicate the alien species. The Lucifer devastated Vasuda Prime and indirectly caused all contact with Earth to be lost. Preventing similar episodes from happening again implies a pure defensive role, IMHO.

[NGTM-1R]

I suspect the all round field of fire is so that when it is engaging the lucifer/other(super)destroyer it is able to defend itself if someone tries to take advantage of it being committed by jumping it with another destroyer

That's like saying the Sath was designed by idiots.

More to the point, even if that's true, it doesn't explain the setup. If it was meant to be an assault ship then it should at least have its firepower weighted to one arc. (The beam-armed Orion, notably, does.) As I observed, the fact it doesn't suggests this ship was not designed to dictate the terms on which it engaged.

The speaker made a great deal of the Colossus Vs. Lucifer comparison during the cutscene, and the beginning of said cutscene is all but focused on the Shivan threat.

He also made about the same deal with his comparison of its firepower to Orions. Are we to then infer that the Colossus was meant to destroy those as well? (In fact the only deal he made regarding the Lucifer was one of sheer size comparison, which isn't terribly interesting or germane to a discussion of military capabilities.)

I don't really think the Colossus was created to serve as linebreaker. The recently born GTVA needed a way to protect its own controlled space from Shivan attacks, not the key element to invade Shivan space and eradicate the alien species. The Lucifer devastated Vasuda Prime and indirectly caused all contact with Earth to be lost. Preventing similar episodes from happening again implies a pure defensive role, IMHO.

The FS1 techroom states that the Shivans place their greatest emphasis on the control of jump nodes, and pay little attention beyond neutralization of immediate military value to planets, installations, asteroid fields, or any other form of fixed target. The GTVA has plenty of beam-armed ships it can send against the Lucifer. What it needs, though, is the ability to maintain its lines of communication and supply in the face of highly mobile Shivan forces who can use nodes that the GTVA cannot to circumvent the usual routes.

If you want to get at your opponent, or simply keep your ships supplied, you are going to need the ability to break the Shivan's hold on more than a few subspace nodes. Thus, the Colossus.

[Luis Dias]

Remember the same video also makes the comparison with alpha1's hercules.