[pecenipicek]

(black people, for whatever reason, have really uproarious Sunday church gatherings, and if I had to choose between that or a solemn white person meeting, well I'll bring my loudest singing voice). At the end of the day though, it just doesn't matter anymore.

This just means they're very capable of taking something so dreadfully boring and making it entertaining. "Race" dont enter into it if you ask me. Hell, while i still was sorta-catholic, i'd have killed to make sunday church-goings less dreadful....

[Luis Dias]

So can we go back now to the topic at hand and return to bashing creotards?

[Grizzly]

(black people, for whatever reason, have really uproarious Sunday church gatherings, and if I had to choose between that or a solemn white person meeting, well I'll bring my loudest singing voice). At the end of the day though, it just doesn't matter anymore.

This just means they're very capable of taking something so dreadfully boring and making it entertaining. "Race" dont enter into it if you ask me. Hell, while i still was sorta-catholic, i'd have killed to make sunday church-goings less dreadful....

We actually have some quite fun sunday sessions here...

So can we go back now to the topic at hand and return to bashing creotards?

Bashing Social-Darwanists is so much more fun!

[pecenipicek]

So can we go back now to the topic at hand and return to bashing creotards?

I'm pretty much interested in UT's response to this....

The thing is that the US public education system (which, surprise, is dominated by liberals) has so crippled people's ability to think for themselves that you rarely see any rational debate on the internet, especially forums.  Usually arguments on HLP end up devolving into competing arguments from authority, and more emphasis is placed on citing your sources than on articulating a cogent position.

The remedy is to read more.  Read the source texts (not commentaries on them) for both your side and your opponents' side.  Read enough that you can defend your position competently even if you forget half the stuff you read.

(this is not directed at The E; he just happened to post before I did)

Sound points regarding the nature of debate on this forum.

On the topic of the education system, that's personally my first target for reform. The current system does not encourage creative or different thought. You are meant to learn the material to get higher numbers which in our system somehow = better students/people/learners/thinkers. Obviously this is proving to be a fallacy, and what's worse, I think that most every kid in the US feels how BS the education system is, but they feel like they *have* to do it because that's how everyone before them did it. I don't think people realize how new a lot of our educational practices are, relatively speaking.

Smarter, better educated people think more about their choices in life and are more likely to try and do things on their own, rather than listening to what someone says to them.
"Stupider" people are more likely to simply go along with what they're told and believe in happy stuff the goverment/religion of choice/the man/whatever tells them to do.

Guess which cathegory would be preferred by the goverment?

Spoiler:

I'm generalising a LOT here. But that doesnt really invalidate my point much.

[Mustang19]

Cultural factors, certainly. Individual genetics, probably. Racial genetics though? Incredibly doubtful.

I wouldn't say "incredibly" doubtful. There are already correlations between race and observable characteristics like skull size (which has a small IQ correlation) as mentioned in my sources, above and beyond SES and nutrition effects.

[General Battuta]

There are much larger correlations between gender and observable characteristics, including skull size and the actual neural composition of the brain; yet no consistent, biologically isolated functional or performance differences have ever been observed.

[pecenipicek]

Cultural factors, certainly. Individual genetics, probably. Racial genetics though? Incredibly doubtful.

I wouldn't say "incredibly" doubtful. There are already correlations between race and observable characteristics like skull size (which has a small IQ correlation) as mentioned in my sources, above and beyond SES and nutrition effects.

A bit of trolling on my end here, i'm sure you'll understand.

I'd say you're a downright dolt who shouldnt be let anywhere near anything of importance and who first of all should need to be gagged and thrown into some dark corner to be forgotten by the rest of the humanity, which will march onwards, past your idiotic sentiments of "racial superirority/inferiority". Setting you on fire in the process is very much optional.

[The E]

Cultural factors, certainly. Individual genetics, probably. Racial genetics though? Incredibly doubtful.

I wouldn't say "incredibly" doubtful. There are already correlations between race and observable characteristics like skull size (which has a small IQ correlation) as mentioned in my sources, above and beyond SES and nutrition effects.

Read some books on the topic published in Germany around 1933 recently?

There are far more correlations between testable intelligence and social factors than there are correlations between race and testable intelligence. Any difference due to genetics you want to postulate is swallowed whole by the huge randomizer that is upbringing.

Also, now that you have not only outed yourself as someone who believes whole races of people are less intelligent than yourself, but also as someone who thinks that women are less intelligent than men, I have to ask something. Is the hole you're in deep enough already, or do you want to keep digging?

[General Battuta]

You know he'll just say he's trolling if pressed too far.

[Mustang19]

There are much larger correlations between gender and observable characteristics, including skull size and the actual neural composition of the brain; yet no consistent, biologically isolated functional or performance differences have ever been observed.

That may be so since the measured male/female IQ differences are quite small, much smaller than the measured black/white IQ differences. Nonetheless I'd like to see a study where ST, culture, and discrimination are all controlled for showing no genetic component to average group IQ.

I'd say you're a downright dolt who shouldnt be let anywhere near anything of importance and who first of all should need to be gagged and thrown into some dark corner to be forgotten by the rest of the humanity, which will march onwards, past your idiotic sentiments of "racial superirority/inferiority". Setting you on fire in the process is very much optional.

Mmm-hmmm. Well I don't know if I'm allowed to say anything back...

There are far more correlations between testable intelligence and social factors than there are correlations between race and testable intelligence. Any difference due to genetics you want to postulate is swallowed whole by the huge randomizer that is upbringing.

That's a valid enough point in terms of a race/IQ discussion. As shown in one of my previous sources the effect of family on IQ is the largest, although this isn't disaggregated between parenting and genetic variables. There is still considerable evidence for strong individual, not group, genetic differences in IQ. The individual heredity of IQ is by no means "incredibly doubtful".

You know he'll just say he's trolling if pressed too far.

No, I'd be fine with admitting it if I didn't get banned.

[BlueFlames]

Cultural factors, certainly. Individual genetics, probably. Racial genetics though? Incredibly doubtful.

I wouldn't say "incredibly" doubtful. There are already correlations between race and observable characteristics like skull size (which has a small IQ correlation) as mentioned in my sources, above and beyond SES and nutrition effects.

If you so ardently believe that one's race confers some natural bonus or penalty to intelligence, how do you propose that information be used?  What policies would you advocate in light of the studies that you've cited?

[Mustang19]

Cultural factors, certainly. Individual genetics, probably. Racial genetics though? Incredibly doubtful.

I wouldn't say "incredibly" doubtful. There are already correlations between race and observable characteristics like skull size (which has a small IQ correlation) as mentioned in my sources, above and beyond SES and nutrition effects.

If you so ardently believe that one's race confers some natural bonus or penalty to intelligence, how do you propose that information be used?  What policies would you advocate in light of the studies that you've cited?

I wouldn't advocate any particular racial policies besides reconsideration of affirmative action and efforts to reduce hiring discrimination favoring equally qualified whites against equally qualified black applicants, which has already been proven.

[Luis Dias]

He's going for cutting off affirmative action. Isn't that obvious?

[Mustang19]

He's going for cutting off affirmative action. Isn't that obvious?

Not even that. Affirmative action is necessary to counteract discrimination, it's just applied excessively today when the black college graduation rate is so much lower than the white rate.

[Luis Dias]

Okay, give me a good example of this.

[Mustang19]

http://www.jbhe.com/features/50_blackstudent_gradrates.html

Several schools have rate gaps; some are quite small. Indeed schools with higher black than white graduation rates should probably admit more blacks.

[Luis Dias]

I was asking a clear example of affirmative action being "applied excessively today", in the sense of being "too much", and what constitutes "too much" and the negative consequences of being "too much".

The article you point out gives good news, and many counter points to those contesting AA... so I'm kinda lost to what your point is...

[Mustang19]

Several schools have low black graduation rates as mentioned in the source. These schools should roll back AA and admit blacks more selectively to boost graduation rates. Example: U of M, 21 percentage point rate difference. Negative consequences? Fewer college graduates overall. When AA reduces overall college graduation rates, that's too much.

Waiting on approval... here, I'll edit in some responses.

@Luis:
Schools should not be under political pressure to raise minority admittance and they should set their own AA policies. Regardless of why rates are lower, the important thing is keeping the overall graduation rate up.

@bob:
At the bottom. Asians and Jews, and especially Ashenkazi Jews, consistently average high in intelligence. People with certain genetic disorders like torsion dystonia have high average IQs as a group. It's unlikely these differences are due entirely to culture or discrimination.

@GB:
That's possible, and there should be more research on this approach. Nonetheless it should be either/or- admit more black students to increase integration or implement color-blind admission. As it is AA is responsible for lower graduation rates.

@watsisname:

Use all the techniques regularly used to control for these variables. Control for ST by not having a stereotype priming condition. Find black students of high or middle SES from an all-black or almost all-black school to control for discrimination. All the black students must be adopted and raised by white parents of high or middle SES to control for culture.

That would be rather complicated to implement I admit. But I would be satisfied if black children adopted by whites and not given ST priming were shown to have average IQ.

[bobbtmann]

Where does Mustang19's own racial group fall on his spectrum of intelligence? Is his group at the top, at the bottom, or somewhere in the middle?

[Luis Dias]

Several schools have low black graduation rates as mentioned in the source. These schools should roll back AA and admit blacks more selectively to boost graduation rates. Example: U of M, 21 percentage point rate difference. Negative consequences? Fewer college graduates overall. When AA reduces overall college graduation rates, that's too much.

Who's to decide what is "too much"? Graduation rates are lower, and this is to be expected in these kinds of measures, for they are anti-social darwinian by nature.

But I got my answer, so I'm satisfied.