[Mustang19]

Schools should not be under political pressure to raise minority admittance and they should set their own AA policies. Regardless of why rates are lower, the important thing is keeping the overall graduation rate up.

[Mustang19]

Where does Mustang19's own racial group fall on his spectrum of intelligence? Is his group at the top, at the bottom, or somewhere in the middle?

At the bottom. Asians and Jews, and especially Ashenkazi Jews, consistently average high in intelligence. People with certain genetic disorders like torsion dystonia have high average IQs as a group. It's unlikely these differences are due entirely to culture or discrimination.

[General Battuta]

Several schools have low black graduation rates as mentioned in the source. These schools should roll back AA and admit blacks more selectively to boost graduation rates. Example: U of M, 21 percentage point rate difference. Negative consequences? Fewer college graduates overall. When AA reduces overall college graduation rates, that's too much.

Alternatively, prejudice and cultural discomfort drive black students out of the school. The solution? More affirmative action to help integrate the campus further!

[Mustang19]

Several schools have low black graduation rates as mentioned in the source. These schools should roll back AA and admit blacks more selectively to boost graduation rates. Example: U of M, 21 percentage point rate difference. Negative consequences? Fewer college graduates overall. When AA reduces overall college graduation rates, that's too much.

Alternatively, prejudice and cultural discomfort drive black students out of the school. The solution? More affirmative action to help integrate the campus further!

That's possible, and there should be more research on this approach. Nonetheless it should be either/or- admit more black students to increase integration or implement color-blind admission. As it is AA is responsible for lower graduation rates.

[Topgun]

NOBODY here has stated ANY facts. I think its time for a change.

Base Attributes
Attribute    M    F
Strength    50    40
Intelligence    30    30
Willpower    30    30
Agility    40    40
Speed    40    40
Endurance    50    50
Personality    30    40
Luck    40    40

you can clearly see that blacks' starting intelligence is much lower than say, an elf's

Base Attributes
Attribute    M    F
Strength    30    30
Intelligence    50    50
Willpower    40    40
Agility    40    40
Speed    30    40
Endurance    40    30
Personality    40    40
Luck    40    40

I honestly can't see why there is so much argument.

[watsisname]

Thanks TG, I think this thread needed that.

Mustang19:
Nonetheless I'd like to see a study where ST, culture, and discrimination are all controlled for showing no genetic component to average group IQ.

I'd like to see you propose a way to properly execute such a study in order to remove those unwanted variables.

[Unknown Target]

Thanks TG, I think this thread needed that.

Mustang19:
Nonetheless I'd like to see a study where ST, culture, and discrimination are all controlled for showing no genetic component to average group IQ.

I'd like to see you propose a way to properly execute such a study in order to remove those unwanted variables.

IQ has been proven to be misleading and not a real measure of "true" intelligence. It's rather silly to try and judge human thinking on a sliding scale - is someone who has an IQ of 150 more creative than an IQ of 50? It's not a measure of processing power in a computer.
So then my question is, even if you do a study such as this, how is it in any way useful?

[Mustang19]

Check my other post, I edited in some things while waiting for approval.

Several schools have low black graduation rates as mentioned in the source. These schools should roll back AA and admit blacks more selectively to boost graduation rates. Example: U of M, 21 percentage point rate difference. Negative consequences? Fewer college graduates overall. When AA reduces overall college graduation rates, that's too much.

Waiting on approval... here, I'll edit in some responses.

@Luis:
Schools should not be under political pressure to raise minority admittance and they should set their own AA policies. Regardless of why rates are lower, the important thing is keeping the overall graduation rate up.

@bob:
At the bottom. Asians and Jews, and especially Ashenkazi Jews, consistently average high in intelligence. People with certain genetic disorders like torsion dystonia have high average IQs as a group. It's unlikely these differences are due entirely to culture or discrimination.

@GB:
That's possible, and there should be more research on this approach. Nonetheless it should be either/or- admit more black students to increase integration or implement color-blind admission. As it is AA is responsible for lower graduation rates.

@watsisname:

Use all the techniques regularly used to control for these variables. Control for ST by not having a stereotype priming condition. Find black students of high or middle SES from an all-black or almost all-black school to control for discrimination. All the black students must be adopted and raised by white parents of high or middle SES to control for culture.

That would be rather complicated to implement I admit. But I would be satisfied if black children adopted by whites and not given ST priming were shown to have average IQ.

So then my question is, even if you do a study such as this, how is it in any way useful?

IQ and related psychomterics correlate with job performance among other things although the correlation is weak. The race/IQ debate is a soapbox more than anything else, and yes, it's not really important. It's not like I'm advocating the return of slavery or anything and it has practically nothing to do with my political views.

[Topgun]

Thanks TG, I think this thread needed that.

Mustang19:
Nonetheless I'd like to see a study where ST, culture, and discrimination are all controlled for showing no genetic component to average group IQ.

I'd like to see you propose a way to properly execute such a study in order to remove those unwanted variables.

IQ has been proven to be misleading and not a real measure of "true" intelligence. It's rather silly to try and judge human thinking on a sliding scale - is someone who has an IQ of 150 more creative than an IQ of 50? It's not a measure of processing power in a computer.
So then my question is, even if you do a study such as this, how is it in any way useful?

iq is still an aspect of intelligence.

[Unknown Target]

What happens if someone refuses to get tested (such as myself)? Is refusing the test tantamount to admitting the failure of the test?

Let's have a philosophical conversation here; let's assume that in the future, everyone is required to have an IQ test, or rather, everyone who applies to a job must put down their IQ number, since there is apparently a weak correlation between IQ and job performance, and everyone only wants to get the theoretically best performing people.
Now let's assume I come along, with an N/A. Is that transferred to a 0? How does the IQ test account for individuals who used their intelligence to generate a logical reason for not wanting to take the test (whatever that reason may be)?

[Topgun]

What happens if someone refuses to get tested (such as myself)? Is refusing the test tantamount to admitting the failure of the test?

Let's have a philosophical conversation here; let's assume that in the future, everyone is required to have an IQ test, or rather, everyone who applies to a job must put down their IQ number, since there is apparently a weak correlation between IQ and job performance, and everyone only wants to get the theoretically best performing people.
Now let's assume I come along, with an N/A. Is that transferred to a 0? How does the IQ test account for individuals who used their intelligence to generate a logical reason for not wanting to take the test (whatever that reason may be)?

sure is a nice future you got there...

[Unknown Target]

What happens if someone refuses to get tested (such as myself)? Is refusing the test tantamount to admitting the failure of the test?

Let's have a philosophical conversation here; let's assume that in the future, everyone is required to have an IQ test, or rather, everyone who applies to a job must put down their IQ number, since there is apparently a weak correlation between IQ and job performance, and everyone only wants to get the theoretically best performing people.
Now let's assume I come along, with an N/A. Is that transferred to a 0? How does the IQ test account for individuals who used their intelligence to generate a logical reason for not wanting to take the test (whatever that reason may be)?

sure is a nice future you got there...

I didn't say I wanted it, I was using a possible future as an example of how the IQ test is bogus.

But that future is not that far off from today, I would say. If you wanted to stretch it, look at our education system; everyone wants to get good numbers (GPA score) because it proves that they're smart, so that they can go to a good university to get a good GPA to prove that they're smart, so when employers look at you they only want to see that you went to a good university, and some even want to see your GPA (I actually had an employer ask me for mine after I sent them an application and I told them that I refused to give it).

[pecenipicek]

What happens if someone refuses to get tested (such as myself)? Is refusing the test tantamount to admitting the failure of the test?

Local Mensa representatives here would like to make people think that that is true. It would certainly help if 90% of their membership here wasnt filled with hipster gits who lack anything better to do, and whose parents have constantly dumped boatloads of cash their way.

[Nuclear1]

It wouldn't make much sense for someone to put down their IQ on job applications (for most professions at least).  The IQ test is mostly made up of logical, pattern-based questions, so if anything, it can be construed as a measure of how well someone can analyze patterns.

But IQ tests aren't that useful for judging someone's qualifications for a job.  When I took the DLAB to judge my qualifications for language study, I scored fairly high, and as a result was assigned a particularly difficult language.  But still, I knew plenty of people who took it and got lower scores but were still assigned difficult languages, and ended up doing better than the people with better scores.

Local Mensa representatives here would like to make people think that that is true. It would certainly help if 90% of their membership here wasnt filled with hipster gits who lack anything better to do, and whose parents have constantly dumped boatloads of cash their way.

Being a part of Mensa is a good way to open doors for someone, but there's still that group of pretentious assholes who do it just to hold it over everyone else's head.

But every job, every group has people like that.

[Mustang19]

What happens if someone refuses to get tested (such as myself)? Is refusing the test tantamount to admitting the failure of the test?

Let's have a philosophical conversation here; let's assume that in the future, everyone is required to have an IQ test, or rather, everyone who applies to a job must put down their IQ number, since there is apparently a weak correlation between IQ and job performance, and everyone only wants to get the theoretically best performing people.
Now let's assume I come along, with an N/A. Is that transferred to a 0? How does the IQ test account for individuals who used their intelligence to generate a logical reason for not wanting to take the test (whatever that reason may be)?

Well then it would be up to the bureaucracy that establishes procedures for those kinds of contingencies. I've never even heard of a job that tested for IQ, but there are jobs which have entrance tests. I know you're trying to start a new discussion here but I can't think of anything to say other than that human resources would have to incorporate the quality of your reasoning into your judgments... but this sounds like a rather silly situation. In practice if something like this came up the employer probably would either throw out your application or assume that your intelligence is statistically average.

I don't think MENSA is too much serious business. I've never been to a meeting but it from the newsletter it seems like a lot of drinking and laser tag.

[Unknown Target]

Well then it would be up to the bureaucracy that establishes procedures for those kinds of contingencies. I've never even heard of a job that tested for IQ, but there are jobs which have entrance tests. I know you're trying to start a new discussing here but I can't think of anything to say other than that human resources would have to incorporate the quality of your reasoning into your judgments... but this sounds like a rather silly situation. In practice if something like this came up the employer probably would either throw out your application or assume that your intelligence is statistically average.

I don't think MENSA is too much serious business. I've never been to a meeting but it from the newsletter it seems like a lot of drinking and laser tag.

In the end the conversation about race seemed to be boiling down to "which races have higher numbers than the others". I just wanted to take issue with an even deeper problem, the idea of numerically grading intelligence. The GPA has, in my opinion, become sort of a de-facto IQ number in our society, and is often accepted as a measure of how "smart" a person is (depending on which university they went to). Again, what happens when someone refuses to take the test? I literally did that; I failed a test on purpose (turned it in totally blank) last quarter for two reasons; 1) I wanted to show that the whole scholastic grading system was crap, as someone like me who could have easily gotten an A on the test could just as easily get an F if they chose to. I was essentially contaminating the results pool on purpose. And 2) I wanted the teacher to ask me why, but that's another story.

As for MENSA, eh, I almost joined, then decided it was too much work for yea, what basically seemed like a social club where everyone thought they were better than anyone not in it.

[General Battuta]

If you think GPA matters after college (except for applying to grad school) you are clearly in college and have no experience in life.

ed: "someone like me who could have easily gotten an A on the test could just as easily get an F if they chose to" I spent my day speaking to Delta support and this is still the dumbest reasoning I've encountered since I woke up. How is that in any way demonstrative of anything? I mean a bench press champion COULD easily have failed to lift 200 pounds if he chose to, but the bench press competition isn't testing that, it's testing how many pounds you could lift. The fact that you chose to throw a test is just cause to laugh at you, it makes no point whatsoever about the validity of test scoring, it does nothing to address any issue regarding academia at all except possibly that you wanted attention.

Tests are meaningful because, allegedly, higher scores are harder to obtain. Demonstrating that a low score is easy to obtain says nothing.

[Mustang19]

UT, in your case I assume your professor had plenty of previous graded work from you an already had an idea what he could expect from your paper. So in that case if he believed that you were turning in the paper to make a statement and not because of any lack of ability it would be reasonable for him to suppose that your ability and understanding of the material were unchanged from past assignments. He might as well just drop the grade and let your average stay the same.

GPA is a better measure of ability than intelligence since it includes many factors such as one's intelligence and potential as well as how strongly one is motivated to apply that potential. GPA and alma mater aren't a perfect measurement of ability but graduate schools and employers have very little to go on when they read a resume or hold an interview. If someone refuses to perform in a way ensures their GPA reflects their ability, they throw a wrench in things and make it harder for schools or employers to know how capable they are. To discourage people from doing this a professor will usually just give you a zero if you turn in a blank paper. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

[pecenipicek]

Local Mensa representatives here would like to make people think that that is true. It would certainly help if 90% of their membership here wasnt filled with hipster gits who lack anything better to do, and whose parents have constantly dumped boatloads of cash their way.

Being a part of Mensa is a good way to open doors for someone, but there's still that group of pretentious assholes who do it just to hold it over everyone else's head.

But every job, every group has people like that.

I'm a very bitter man, dontcha know?

Spoiler:

i do not imply with the above statement that i've taken an IQ test or applied to Mensa...

[StarSlayer]

If you think GPA matters after college (except for applying to grad school) you are clearly in college and have no experience in life.

Hell your college hardly matters after your first job