[Mustang19]

For example, a state that has the power to sterilize any child who doesn't have an iq over 95, all else being equal, will score much better in just two generations. Of course, "all else" is not "equal" at all. But for the sake of argument.

Or they'll all turn into drooling morons because they've accidentally killed the alleles involved in some kind of partial dominance or simultaneous expression.

Again there's no way to know in the absence of empirical evidence. All we can do is await the coming of the Japanese AfroAmerican Master Race.

[Luis Dias]

For example, a state that has the power to sterilize any child who doesn't have an iq over 95, all else being equal, will score much better in just two generations. Of course, "all else" is not "equal" at all. But for the sake of argument.

Or they'll all turn into drooling morons because they've accidentally killed the alleles involved in some kind of partial dominance or simultaneous expression.

That's why I said "all else being equal". Doh. It never is. Plans for world domination have always been an utter disappointment.

[Mikes]

In what way? If you get to control the human breeding process and have enough quantitative criteria in order to be able to make the most efficient choices, you will be successful.

It sounds so reasonable and intuitive to the untrained mind:  First you need to understand all the parts and then you can just manipulate anything to do whatever you want it to do.

Yet... we completely fail at micromanaging much less complex systems. Once a system reaches a certain level of complexity all top-down planning simply falls apart.


If you read some general systems theory and advanced organization & management theories based uppon the former you will quickly learn just how limited top-down planning really is.
Furthermore... the most spectacular screwups always tend to involve people who intuitively assume that their top-down planning just has the work because they are so sure that they didn t miss a variable.

Well guess what.... missing a single variable could  not only spell the end of the human race if you are tinkering with the genome, history (and related statistics) tells us very conclusively that the moment you implement top-down planning it's pretty much a given that you miss the more variables the more complex the system you attempt to manipulate gets... and consequently the actual outcome differs more and more greatly from the intended one.


Bottomline: We re are much more likely to conolize the whole solar system before we understand the human genome well enough to manipulate it completely "safely" - if its even ever possible at all. Note the word: "safely". It's the keyword.

Heck, we can't even model weather or the economy all that well yet and you want to start manipulating isolated variables in a system as complex as the human body which by itself is only part of the larger system of the human race.

It's about as deluded as watching an episode of Star Trek just to state that you don't understand why we didn't build FTL Starships yet as that would clearly make sense.
I.e.: You have an idea and a goal and maybe even good intention...   but the more relevant fact is: you have not even a hint of understanding of how the whole thing actually works.


To get a deeper understanding of just idiotic the manipulation of complex systems that you can't even properly describe yet actually is, I would wholeheartly recommend Niklas Luhmann's criticism of prescriptive theories in social or economic systems.

[Kolgena]

If breeding programs worked for the Bene Gesserit, they will work now!

[Mongoose]

Honestly, I think the only worthwhile thing to come out of this whole thread is the discovery that there's something called "Johnny Depp syndrome."

[bobbtmann]

I don't get it. Mustang19 gets nine pages of people discussing why his ideas of race-intelligence are wrong. Marcov just gets one page of people telling him he's "a morally appalling piece of ****" and unsophisticated, but no one explains why his views on rape are wrong.

I'd hate to think there are double standards on enlightening people.

[General Battuta]

Uh I think I explained it pretty well.

Jesus are you seriously going to make an argument that women deserve to be raped if they don't dress the way you like

[redsniper]

I think he's just saying he wants equal amounts of papers and links and stuff thrown around in both threads.

[The E]

There's just no point. The only reason why Mustang19 has been argued with is because he actually bothered to at least try and make a supported point; Marcov, on the other hand, just posted without thinking, as is his habit.

[General Battuta]

Also Mustang is clearly an adult or nearly so and Marcov is clearly not.

[bobbtmann]

I don't see how his age has anything to do with it. Maybe I'm just a stupid idealist, but if someone says something like that to me I don't immediately assume that they're a troll or young (especially online). I take them at face value and try to explain why I think they're wrong.

Besides, insulting him doesn't prove him wrong. It says more about the bully than the actual topic.

[General Battuta]

I don't think you've spent enough time around Marcov to understand the level of posting he is limited to.

You can't convince someone they're wrong if they don't have the equipment to understand what you're saying or why there's even a problem.

[Topgun]

What's this about marcov?

[Grizzly]

Yeah, were talking about enhancing the human race à la Deus Ex here. leave marcov out of this .

In what way? If you get to control the human breeding process and have enough quantitative criteria in order to be able to make the most efficient choices, you will be successful.

It sounds so reasonable and intuitive to the untrained mind:  First you need to understand all the parts and then you can just manipulate anything to do whatever you want it to do.

Yet... we completely fail at micromanaging much less complex systems. Once a system reaches a certain level of complexity all top-down planning simply falls apart.


If you read some general systems theory and advanced organization & management theories based uppon the former you will quickly learn just how limited top-down planning really is.
Furthermore... the most spectacular screwups always tend to involve people who intuitively assume that their top-down planning just has the work because they are so sure that they didn t miss a variable.

Well guess what.... missing a single variable could  not only spell the end of the human race if you are tinkering with the genome, history (and related statistics) tells us very conclusively that the moment you implement top-down planning it's pretty much a given that you miss the more variables the more complex the system you attempt to manipulate gets... and consequently the actual outcome differs more and more greatly from the intended one.


Bottomline: We re are much more likely to conolize the whole solar system before we understand the human genome well enough to manipulate it completely "safely" - if its even ever possible at all. Note the word: "safely". It's the keyword.

Heck, we can't even model weather or the economy all that well yet and you want to start manipulating isolated variables in a system as complex as the human body which by itself is only part of the larger system of the human race.

It's about as deluded as watching an episode of Star Trek just to state that you don't understand why we didn't build FTL Starships yet as that would clearly make sense.
I.e.: You have an idea and a goal and maybe even good intention...   but the more relevant fact is: you have not even a hint of understanding of how the whole thing actually works.


To get a deeper understanding of just idiotic the manipulation of complex systems that you can't even properly describe yet actually is, I would wholeheartly recommend Niklas Luhmann's criticism of prescriptive theories in social or economic systems.

Its like repairing a plasma or LCD tv (or another piece of higly complicated electronical equipment) whilst only having basic equipment and the knowledge on how to repair a CRT tv, which not always has been succesful.

[mustang191]

Mustang19 here. I was screwing about in my profile and got locked out of my account by sending a verification email to an address that doesn't exist. Don't worry about me, the mods should be on the case. 

I appreciate being called an adult but I believe you vastly overestimate my age. Irregardless, as far as I can tell nothing was ever proven wrong or right in this thread. We've basically come to the conclusion on both the IQ gap and eugenics that, "no policy changes are warranted because although Mustang19's insane hitler ideas may have merit no conclusive empirical research is available to justify risks". I'm still curious about why people have been so quick to accept cultural explanations of group IQ differences over genetic ones even though hardly more support is available for the former.

[Marcov]

Thanks for pointing out my outright stupidity once more.

And I don't think there's any reason to bring this crap about me here, when I've never posted about this particular issue.

However, my idea about rape wasn't exactly worth an argument, and was pretty much just a comment, rather than bringing an entire Shivan Manifesto-sized speech to support some small statement (hey what if I had a high libido lol). You don't have to post a show of your intellect on such issues. Which is why your assumptions about me bringing about an empty side of debate are pretty much just crap anyway.

And I don't think my age should alter anything here at all. What if I tell you I'm a 6-year-old kid? Should that be a point of judgement against my empty statements? What I see here now, is just a product of your stimulation to stereotype me as a troll, or something similar, which isn't really worth posting, not here.

[mustang191]

Hey Marcov, I'm sure you're a great guy. But why care about what people think of you on the internet? HLP is positively geriatric compared to any image board, but you still need a thick skin from time to time. I would just let it go if I were you.

[Grizzly]

Mustang19 here. I was screwing about in my profile and got locked out of my account by sending a verification email to an address that doesn't exist. Don't worry about me, the mods should be on the case. 

I appreciate being called an adult but I believe you vastly overestimate my age. Irregardless, as far as I can tell nothing was ever proven wrong or right in this thread. We've basically come to the conclusion on both the IQ gap and eugenics that, "no policy changes are warranted because although Mustang19's insane hitler ideas may have merit no conclusive empirical research is available to justify risks". I'm still curious about why people have been so quick to accept cultural explanations of group IQ differences over genetic ones even though hardly more support is available for the former.

That's because all other causes have been eleminated. Untill there is solid evidence that cultural difference is not the cause, we'll assume that that is the case. Its the same as with some theories involving physics, especially when the field was still young.

[Luis Dias]

In what way? If you get to control the human breeding process and have enough quantitative criteria in order to be able to make the most efficient choices, you will be successful.

It sounds so reasonable and intuitive to the untrained mind:  First you need to understand all the parts and then you can just manipulate anything to do whatever you want it to do.

Yet... we completely fail at micromanaging much less complex systems. Once a system reaches a certain level of complexity all top-down planning simply falls apart.

As I said, if you wanted a better IQ'd population, that would be significantly simple to produce, regardless of Battuta's FUD. Nothing too complicated. Do I need to remind the audience that the nazis did in fact practice eugenics against those who were physically and mentally handicapped? What do you think would happen to the population as a whole if such people were stopped from breeding? Some kind of unknown disaster? Or just the degradation of genes which result in malformations?

I think the equations are simple enough. What is not simple is the implementation of this and the full disrespect of individual rights.

[Grizzly]

What do you think would happen to the population as a whole if such people were stopped from breeding?

There's something about that mentally and physically handicapped people usually don't get to reproduce. The nazi's killed them because it simply was too expensive to keep them alive.

And there's a thing. I am also mentally handicapped, although there are some benefits to society for me being so. You can't just say 'we will sterelize all the mentally handicapped', since then you'd also remove a lot of potential benificial genes.