Author Topic: United States' Gun Laws  (Read 18104 times)

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Offline Topgun

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
Okay Topgun, what do you think of private ownership of antitank missiles and 50 cals? I mean really, the only use for those kinds of weapons would be to overthrow a tyrannical government.

I think its crazy. Like you said, the only legitimate use use is to overthrow a government, at that point I don't think it matters if they are illegal or not.

  

Offline jr2

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
True that.. if the government needs to be overthrown, you wouldn't exactly worry about following it's laws.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
not to debate rights at all but i must point out that there are really two schools of thought on the whole gun ownership thing. you have the urbanite view that "guns protect us from criminals" and the rural "guns put meat in the freezer" view. the types of guns owned by either are rather specific, you wouldn't always see an urbanite carrying a shotgun, and handguns are somewhat useless to a hunter. not to say that you want see a handgun on my inlaws' gun rack. pistols are useful for putting down meat that doesn't die immediately, of course a second shot from the rifle works. maybe youre going fishing in the woods and need to keep the bears from eating you / stealing your catch and dont want to carry a heavy rifle in addition to your fishing gear. i cant understand why anyone in a city would want a shotgun or a scoped rifle, i guess shotguns can breach doors or work as a terror weapon, and a scoped rifle is good for assassinations. cant really come up with a leagal, non-law-enforcement reason to have them in the city. in that scenario you want a pistol of sorts, can be used in close quarters and are easily concealed. as for me, guns put nearly 100 pounds of meat in my freezer last year.

as for the second amendment, i cant see any reason why we need militias anymore. we cannot turn the government with hand guns and hunting rifles. unless we amend it to allow us to carry tanks and nukes. id love to have my own nuclear device. i could just set it off when im feeling depressed. that would be kinda cool. of course id have to get my parking space widened to park my abrams. perhaps we need to limit people to owning weapons that were available when the second amendment was amended. i can hunt with a long rifle. criminals will have to go back to knife fighting.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
For personal defense, get a TASER.  They hurt like hell, but they're nonlethal in most cases.
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Offline Topgun

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
I rather like Dominican Republic's take on assault rifles. You can own them with a special license thats very hard to get but they are illegal to take off private property and the police reserve the right to confiscate them at anytime. It limits their use to security and collecting. It can still be exploited but its better than making them illegal outright or letting anyone walk around with one.



For personal defense, get a TASER.  They hurt like hell, but they're nonlethal in most cases.

but only work once in an engagement. You're screwed if you are being pursued by more than one person.

 
Re: United States' Gun Laws
Nuke, again, its because at least in the USA, guns have more use than just against criminals and hunting, as stated earlier - It's about protecting from a illegal or tyrannical government. Sort of a last weapon if the democratic and republic processes have been rendered useless and/or peaceful revolution is made impossible.

Given what we see in the Middle East, where peaceful protects are met with violence and crackdowns, and where the only ones armed are either the Rebels or Government Loyalists - the proverbial rock and a hard place - causing the population to be constantly dependant on who the new boss becomes in their peaceful town, instead of fighting both of them off?  Granted, I don't know if this would be a better alternative, but it feels like it beats the whole destabilisation and constant war between two halves of one country that we've been seeing a lot the last 20ish years or so.
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Re: United States' Gun Laws
Very few people are killed with assault rifles in the United States every year. Handguns and to a lesser extent shotguns are the real murder weapons.

 

Offline Topgun

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
Very few people are killed with assault rifles in the United States every year. Handguns and to a lesser extent shotguns are the real murder weapons.

That could be (and probably is) because assault rifles are illegal in most (if not all) states.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
Only if purchased after 1979.  Any before then were grandfathered in.  For example, my dad knows a guy who served in WWII and has a fully functional M2 Browning, legally acquired as surplus in the late 50s.  It's still legal.

 
Re: United States' Gun Laws
I'd also probably say that full assault rifles are harder to obtain, legally or illegally, than handguns.  My state of California has some pretty strict regulations on handgun ownership but those don't seem to stop gangs from being armed.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
I rather like Dominican Republic's take on assault rifles. You can own them with a special license thats very hard to get but they are illegal to take off private property and the police reserve the right to confiscate them at anytime. It limits their use to security and collecting. It can still be exploited but its better than making them illegal outright or letting anyone walk around with one.

:wtf:

Yeah, no it's not.

As far as I'm concerned, gun ownership (and the attitudes related to it) in the US is (are) balls-to-the-wall, **** smearing crazy. I've heard all the arguments and none of them hold water for me. Honestly, it's treated like a slightly tragic joke over here.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
Nuke, again, its because at least in the USA, guns have more use than just against criminals and hunting, as stated earlier - It's about protecting from a illegal or tyrannical government. Sort of a last weapon if the democratic and republic processes have been rendered useless and/or peaceful revolution is made impossible.

Given what we see in the Middle East, where peaceful protects are met with violence and crackdowns, and where the only ones armed are either the Rebels or Government Loyalists - the proverbial rock and a hard place - causing the population to be constantly dependant on who the new boss becomes in their peaceful town, instead of fighting both of them off?  Granted, I don't know if this would be a better alternative, but it feels like it beats the whole destabilisation and constant war between two halves of one country that we've been seeing a lot the last 20ish years or so.

if it ever came down to america's population vs america's military, it is quite obvious who will win. allowing for militias and allowing the public to bear arms let people police their local communities and protect themselves from hostile indigenous populations and of course brittish infiltration. it was a young country and we needed the militias at the time to survive until we had managed to develop proper police and military forces. that need has passed. and while i think we should keep the right to bear arms, it no longer holds the meaning it once did. if the us government did go tyrannical there would be very little the people could do to stop it unless we were allowed access to the same weapons the military had.

if something like what happened in lybia happens here, there are probably enough guns in public circulation to manage a costly guerrilla campaign. while the right to bear arms clause seems to be followed nay worshiped by a great many americans, almost nobody runs a regulated and organized militia anymore. you would of course see new ones form up. you might see parts of the military breaking away to support the citizens. of course they can just turn around and nuke cities if they feel threatened. point is i see less practicality for us needing militias than i do for us to own guns. at least guns put meat in the freezer.
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
I feel "Militia" at some point became the National Guard, etc. So although you can run and maintain a militia, it is really a pretty silly notion.

The right to bear arms themselves is something I genuinely feel should not be removed from the populace - the arguments for and against this are a mile long, but ultimately I feel that enabling the populace with the ability to fend for and provide for itself at some level more than oughtweighs negative consequences. Ultimately, a free society must practice self-regulation within the individual - when that fails, the government will attempt to provide regulation. When everything fails, anarchy ensues.

I'll close with this: remember that when a government removes arms from the populace, the populace needn't worry about travesties being committed with arms not being committed anymore - the government will do that for them.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
I rather like Dominican Republic's take on assault rifles. You can own them with a special license thats very hard to get but they are illegal to take off private property and the police reserve the right to confiscate them at anytime. It limits their use to security and collecting. It can still be exploited but its better than making them illegal outright or letting anyone walk around with one.

:wtf:

Yeah, no it's not.

As far as I'm concerned, gun ownership (and the attitudes related to it) in the US is (are) balls-to-the-wall, **** smearing crazy. I've heard all the arguments and none of them hold water for me. Honestly, it's treated like a slightly tragic joke over here.

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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
making guns illegal doesn't stop criminals from using them.  it does, however, prevent a law-abiding citizen from using one to defend him/herself.  it is ABSOLUTELY my right to defend myself.  i don't see what is so damn hard to understand about this, or why people like to just ignore this argument. 

let me know how that taser works out when someone has a gun and intends to use it.  maybe i still don't make it, but at least it's not because the government took away my chance.


sidenote, shotguns are a pretty common and effective home defense weapon.  not completely pointless in an urban setting.

second sidenote, why did this even come up?  little too boring around here lately?
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Re: United States' Gun Laws
It seems to me that needing guns to defend yourself from your elected government is a weak argument. I would think that in a democracy, if you have to defend yourself from the government, you've done something wrong. Like supported bad policies with your vote.

Plus, I thought people who shot at American soldiers were bad guys and terrorists. If american citizens are shooting at their own soldiers wouldn't that make them terrorists and bad guys?

If the American government turns against the american people, then the american people would support its actions. Look at how the middle class votes against its own best interests. Any oppression and loss of freedom would be called "Security For Freedom" or "The Free American's Patriotic Legislation" or something and everyone would buy it up as necessary measures in tough economic times. The government wouldn't just flat out say "we're going to oppress you now"

In Canada our current Prime Minister decided that because of the economic slump, we needed to take drastic measure. So they started selling off historic landmarks and shutting down government websites that helped women deal with prejudice in the workplace. These measures did nothing in terms of economic stimulus or cutting costs, yet everyone I talked to seemed to think it was necessary in these "tough times".

 

Offline Kopachris

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
Evidence on Gun Bans and Murder Rates: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4vruXcVfjv-NGE5ZTkxMjQtOGQwZS00YmZiLTgzYjQtOGMwOWQ5ZjVmZmVj&hl=en
Fatal Car Accident Statistics: http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/fatal-accident-statistics.html
Homicide statistics by state: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AovruXcVfjv-dE1pVkIxUWtiRXZoSzZHSDBUYTFZa1E&hl=en
(spreadsheet by me based on data from http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Search/Homicide/State/RunHomOneYearofData.cfm)

Car Accident Fatalities in 2005 (USA): 43,443
Gun Homicides in 2005 (USA): 10,624

Countries which ban guns (specifically handguns) typically have a higher murder rate using them.

Lessons learned?  Guns don't kill people, people kill people; if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

I personally believe (if you haven't already gathered this) that because of human nature, banning guns is largely ineffective.  Conversely, not banning guns is also largely ineffective.  The best use for civilian gun ownership is sport shooting.
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Offline Delta_V

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Re: United States' Gun Laws

Car Accident Fatalities in 2005 (USA): 43,443
Gun Homicides in 2005 (USA): 10,624

Countries which ban guns (specifically handguns) typically have a higher murder rate using them.

Lessons learned?  Guns don't kill people, people kill people; if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

I personally believe (if you haven't already gathered this) that because of human nature, banning guns is largely ineffective.  Conversely, not banning guns is also largely ineffective.  The best use for civilian gun ownership is sport shooting.

I also remember seeing an article somewhere about how the rate of violent crime in Florida dropped after they adopted concealed carry laws, despite the predictions of the ban all guns everywhere crowd.

Personally, I'm in favor of concealed-carry laws for handguns, but I think there should be more regulations/training in order to get a permit.  I believe a person has a right to defend themself from a mugger, burglar, etc., and a handgun and the training to use it is one of the best defenses in those situations.  However, there are also a lot of idiots out there who I wouldn't trust with a gun.  That's why I think there should be a fairly rigorous training program for getting a permit to make sure they know how to handle a gun w/out hurting themself or a bystander.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: United States' Gun Laws
Wasn't there some evidence about Arizona's open-carry and some other town's open-carry bringing gun crimes to an all-time low?  Yeah, it's late, and I don't want to go looking it up right now. I could be totally wrong.
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