Author Topic: World of Tanks  (Read 30130 times)

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Offline crizza

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True enough, but they are talking about the german TDs for a very long time.
Besides, the Jagdpanther2 ist fast, but has less armour than the Ferdinand.
And the russian tree...well, I won't touch any of these tanks...
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Offline Hades

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That said, Nothing in the game needs an overhaul more than German Heavies.
Other than the E-100, they're fine. Maus has the armor and high health, which is good, and has dimenished pen (but still enough to pen anything frontally) and ROF, which is good as it balances that out. Same goes for the E-75.

The KT is extremely well balanced as all tier 8 tanks are and the Tiger is easily one of the better tier 7 heavies due to the high pen, good accuracy, good soft stats (especially on the gun), high health pool, and good maneuverability. The Tiger P is similarly good, but it has good frontal armor in exchange for being MUCH slower and with worse maneuverability. Personally, I prefer the Tiger H.

The Ausf 4502 A is basically the German IS-3, it has similar armor in strength to the Tiger 2. The VK 4502P is very hard to drive, it's basically a longer E-75 with a rear mounted turret and weaker armor, you have to reverse angle it to fight the most effectively, which then makes it almost impossible to kill, same with the Maus if it does this, but can still hold its own without doing so.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline Scotty

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You must be playing an entirely different game than I am, because the VK 4502 A and the King Tiger are competing hard for the title of "worst Tier 8 Heavies" with a gusto not seen anywhere else in the game.  The King Tiger's armor is some of the most easily penetrated armor in the entire tier, and the VK A is similarly competing.  The biggest difference is that the VK A trades a gun approaching decent for a higher top speed and better engine.  It's the fastest German Heavy, yes, but it's also got worse or equivalent guns than any other German Heavy, including the ones below it, and the armor isn't that great, either.  Saying it's similar to the KT isn't doing it any favors.

The E-75 is stellar, to be sure, but the VK P is a slug, and the rear mounted turret means that actually getting a decent position with it is significantly more difficult than it needs to be.  The armor is worse than the E-75, the gun is the same as the E-75, the E-75 gets a 50% more powerful engine, and they have the same top speed but the E-75 is still more maneuverable.  And, again, the rear mounted turret, which just makes it harder to use effectively.  The VK P is not a good tank, and if you can somehow find a way to call it that, you're somehow managing to ignore how it's worse in every single way except health, which it only wins by 20 out of almost 2000, compared to the other Tier 9 Heavy tank in the same tech tree.

The Tigers are alright, to be sure, but I still wouldn't call them one of the better Tier 7 Heavies.  The T29 outguns the Tiger significantly with a much better turret and only slightly lesser maneuverability, and the KV-3 is the best Tier 7 in the game, although the IS still sucks (but is faster with a better gun than the Tigers) and the M4 45 isn't much better.  The Tiger H and Tiger P are middle of the pack.  They win the health battle, but the regular Tiger loses the armor battle to everything but the French, including the IS (which is sad), and the Tiger P loses the maneuverability battle to everything but the KV-3.  Honestly, the loss of maneuverability between the Tiger H and Tiger P isn't that much, but it's noticeable.  The higher top speed helps balance it out on longer trips, because it's actually possible to hit the top speed on level ground with a good crew, but in short sprints the Tiger H wins.  Against other T7 heavies, the Long 88s aren't really much better, and are in some cases significantly worse than opposing Tier 7 armaments, most notably the 122 mm deathsticks on the IS and KV-3, which can pump out nearly 60% more alpha, which is not insignificant in most heavy tank fights.

Looking at the Tier 10s, the Maus is the slowest tank in the higher tiers, bar none.  It's also very nearly out-armored by half of the other Tier 10 Heavies.  Both the IS-4 and IS-7 have better turret armor, and the T-110E5 has higher hull armor.  The E-100 even wins the front turret and hull contest.  The only places the Maus really wins are in the side and rear turret categories, and those are 210 mm of light slope (about 220 mm effective), so just about anything Tier 8 or higher can go right through it.  The actual sides and rear are damn near flat, and anything Tier 7 or higher can go through those.  The Maus also has this little hatch on the back of the turret that you can actually pen with a Pz IV easily.  And then there's the part where it's, you know, the single slowest high tier tank in the game in every way except rate of fire.  Fun fact: if you use the E-100, you get a higher rate of fire with the Maus's gun than the Maus does, so it doesn't even have that.  It does have the highest health going for it though, can't deny that.

The E-100 gets a bigger gun with a higher alpha in exchange for much weaker side and rear armor, but is also faster and more maneuverable.  And 500 health weaker.  If the Maus manages to compare favorably with it, then there's not much more I think I need to say.

tl;dr No, German heavies suck and need some loving.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Agreed. German heavies suck.

Russian tanks get all the love.
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Offline Mefustae

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Personally, I swear by the vanilla Tiger. Had it through goddamn near 4 major patches, and I always manage to do quite well in it. Probably my favorite tank in the game to play, second only to the Panzer IV. Still, to each their own.

 

Offline Hades

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You must be playing an entirely different game than I am, because the VK 4502 A and the King Tiger are competing hard for the title of "worst Tier 8 Heavies" with a gusto not seen anywhere else in the game.  The King Tiger's armor is some of the most easily penetrated armor in the entire tier, and the VK A is similarly competing.  The biggest difference is that the VK A trades a gun approaching decent for a higher top speed and better engine.  It's the fastest German Heavy, yes, but it's also got worse or equivalent guns than any other German Heavy, including the ones below it, and the armor isn't that great, either.  Saying it's similar to the KT isn't doing it any favors.
Nah. The KT has really reliably armor and easily the best gun all around at tier 8. When I was top tier, I had no issues deflecting shots off of my front with proper angling and cover usage.

The VK4501 is basically a German IS-3 with less pen and alpha damage on that gun, but its gun has better soft and hard stats otherwise. It's definitely more versatile than the IS-3, same as the KT, and can roll with mediums like an IS-3 can.

Quote
The E-75 is stellar, to be sure, but the VK P is a slug, and the rear mounted turret means that actually getting a decent position with it is significantly more difficult than it needs to be.  The armor is worse than the E-75, the gun is the same as the E-75, the E-75 gets a 50% more powerful engine, and they have the same top speed but the E-75 is still more maneuverable.  And, again, the rear mounted turret, which just makes it harder to use effectively.  The VK P is not a good tank, and if you can somehow find a way to call it that, you're somehow managing to ignore how it's worse in every single way except health, which it only wins by 20 out of almost 2000, compared to the other Tier 9 Heavy tank in the same tech tree.
The VK4501P is a fine tank, it's just different. It isn't used to round corners like most other heavies are, you have to play it in a certain way. You can't expect one tank to play like another in World of Tanks, to use each tank, and to use it well, you need to adapt to it! It's called reverse angling. Hiding your front and showing a steep angle of your side that is basically autobounce, which the turret location allows for and makes easy. You just can't reverse angle in the E-75 like you can the VK.

Quote
The Tigers are alright, to be sure, but I still wouldn't call them one of the better Tier 7 Heavies.  The T29 outguns the Tiger significantly with a much better turret and only slightly lesser maneuverability, and the KV-3 is the best Tier 7 in the game, although the IS still sucks (but is faster with a better gun than the Tigers) and the M4 45 isn't much better.  The Tiger H and Tiger P are middle of the pack.  They win the health battle, but the regular Tiger loses the armor battle to everything but the French, including the IS (which is sad), and the Tiger P loses the maneuverability battle to everything but the KV-3.  Honestly, the loss of maneuverability between the Tiger H and Tiger P isn't that much, but it's noticeable.  The higher top speed helps balance it out on longer trips, because it's actually possible to hit the top speed on level ground with a good crew, but in short sprints the Tiger H wins.  Against other T7 heavies, the Long 88s aren't really much better, and are in some cases significantly worse than opposing Tier 7 armaments, most notably the 122 mm deathsticks on the IS and KV-3, which can pump out nearly 60% more alpha, which is not insignificant in most heavy tank fights.
Actually, the turret on the T29 has more frontal armor, similarly weak side and rear armor on its turret, but it has a bigger turret weakspot from the front and a much larger turret in general. The gun has more alpha, but similar DPM due to the RoF difference, the gun is also less accurate, has less penetration, but similar soft stats (being accuracy on the move and such). The Tiger's gun wins out on being cheap to reammo as well.

The KV-3 is awful bro. Similar armor to the IS-2, worse maneuverability, worse speed, and a horrible gun! The IS is already awful, with low health, low accuracy, low pen, and no armor (everything at tier 7 pens everything else at tier 7 other than the Tiger P). The KV-3 may have more health, but it certainly doesn't justify having the same gun on a similarly (un)armored chassis, with less speed and maneuverability, and more fire problems (shoot a KV-3 on the rear-side and it catches on fire, bro)

Trust me, the maneuverability difference between the Tiger H and P can mean the difference between life or death. The Tiger is almost unable to be circled by a smaller tank, the Tiger P is too slow to keep up.

About the guns, let's have a look at the stats.

8,8 cm KwK 43 L/71
240 average damage
203 average penetration
.34 accuracy
7 rounds per minute

2.9 second aimtime
-6/+17 gun depression (downwards/upwards)

105 mm Gun T5E1
320 average damage
198 average penetration
.42 accuracy
5.25 rounds per minute
2.3 aimtime
-10/+25 gun depression


122 mm D-25T
390 average damage
175 penetration
.46 average accuracy
4.86 rounds per minute
3.43 aimtime
-6/+25 gun depression

The IS' gun, whille having the most alpha, pays for it in absolutelyawful aimtime, penetration, shell cost (over 1000, couldn't find the numbers for this tank specifically, but it should be the same as my IS-3) and accuracy, as well as a slower reload time than the others. The Tiger has low alpha damage, but the highest rate of fire, penetration, accuracy, cheapest ammo, and middle ground aimtime. The T29's gun is a good inbetween, it is balanced between alpha and rate of fire. None are really inherently better, while I prefer the long 88 as I prefer faster-firing weapons which makes a bounce or miss less painful, and the accuracy etc, it all depends on your playstyle.

I'd agree that 240 damage would be insignificant if it didn't have the high rate of fire to counterbalance that, which it does.

Quote
Looking at the Tier 10s, the Maus is the slowest tank in the higher tiers, bar none.  It's also very nearly out-armored by half of the other Tier 10 Heavies.  Both the IS-4 and IS-7 have better turret armor, and the T-110E5 has higher hull armor.  The E-100 even wins the front turret and hull contest.  The only places the Maus really wins are in the side and rear turret categories, and those are 210 mm of light slope (about 220 mm effective), so just about anything Tier 8 or higher can go right through it.  The actual sides and rear are damn near flat, and anything Tier 7 or higher can go through those.  The Maus also has this little hatch on the back of the turret that you can actually pen with a Pz IV easily.  And then there's the part where it's, you know, the single slowest high tier tank in the game in every way except rate of fire.  Fun fact: if you use the E-100, you get a higher rate of fire with the Maus's gun than the Maus does, so it doesn't even have that.  It does have the highest health going for it though, can't deny that.

The E-100 gets a bigger gun with a higher alpha in exchange for much weaker side and rear armor, but is also faster and more maneuverable.  And 500 health weaker.  If the Maus manages to compare favorably with it, then there's not much more I think I need to say.

tl;dr No, German heavies suck and need some loving.
The Maus is slow because it, actually yes, has armor. You have to angle it carefully, including the turret between shots, at around a 25-30 degree angle, and you can do the before-mentioned reverse angling trick with it. When it does this, though, it is a nearly impenetrable beast. It also has better turret roof armor (but not in the other directions aside from rear turret compared to the IS-4/7) so that stuff like a S-51 hitting an IS-7's turret roof doesn't take off 2000 damage (which WILL happen) on a Maus like it will the IS-7/4. The T110's hull armor isn't better other than the hull nose, the lower plate is weaker, and there's also the large cupola on the T110's turret. The T110's weak side armor, being around 50 mm thick, makes it so it cannot angle either.

About the side and rear turret effectiveness for the Maus;, due to the height, most tanks have to shoot up at the turret, which means that side and rear turret get more of an angle due to the angle of impact from the enemy's shell from looking up at it, increasing the effectiveness. The Maus has some spaced armor on bits of the sides, so there's only a few bits that the Tiger and maybe T29 can go through. Same as every tier 10 heavy bro, especially things like the IS-4, T110, and IS-7. Also the Maus may be slow, but it has better acceleration than even the IS-7. That's a funfact.

The E-100 also has spaced armor on it side. The IS-4 doesn't, it has that one, slightly sloped 160mm thick strip of armor above the tracks, and the armor behind the tracks is a whopping 120mm thick. The IS-4's frontal armor layout makes angling extremely difficult, and the ammoracks are in vulnerable locations. The IS-7 has some good frontal armor plates and turret armor. And a strip of spaced armor on the side (the flat bit is the only bit of spaced armor). That's it. The side armor behind the tracks is 110mm thick. The rear is only 90 mm thick at a slope unable to bounce anything at that tier, the side and rear turret armor is weak, and the rear turret can be shot to ammorack it easily. The front's armor layout makes angling the tank IMPOSSIBLE unless hiding behind cover. If you angle the tank out of cover, the upper plate facing them becomes absurdly weak, and the ammoracks on the IS-7 are located behind the front armor's headlights.

The lower plate on the IS-7 can be penetrated by tier 8 guns (it's around 212 mm effective), and due to the shape, is roughly one half of the front.

tl;dr, you're silly and saying that German tanks suck because you haven't done your homework/can't adjust to the playstyle/etc.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline Spoon

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Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerds
 :p
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 
 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerds
 :p

What's that you say? Something about having created an anime-themed FS2Open mod?


It's funny, because I agree with Hades on the KT, but Scotty on the VK45A.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Spoon

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What's that you say? Something about having created an anime-themed FS2Open mod?
I dunno what that is about but it sounds Nerdy
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 
You should stop liking anime.  You'll be a better person for it and hopefully people will stop picking on you.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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You should stop liking anime.  You'll be a better person for it and hopefully people will stop picking on you.

Okay, who unbanned DarthWang?
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 
Considering I hang out in #WoD every day, there's no way I could be serious.  I mean, we do occasionally discuss anime in there when we aren't talking about everything else nerdy. :p
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline TrashMan

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Hades, you analysis is incomplete.

You forgot to take into acount plenty of things.  Let's take another looksy, shall we?

8,8 cm KwK 43 L/71
240 average damage
203 average penetration
.34 accuracy
7 rounds per minute
2.9 second aimtime
-6/+17 gun depression (downwards/upwards)   <--- kinda important, don't you think?

105 mm Gun T5E1
320 average damage     <---- but 80 points of damage difference
198 average penetration   <--- only 5 points of PEN differenc. Note that Tigers II's armor is 100.
.42 accuracy
5.25 rounds per minute
2.3 aimtime
-10/+25 gun depression



TIGER II (Tier VIII)
Hull Armor (mm) 102/76/51   
Turret Armor (mm)    279/127/107
Max speed  - 28


T29 (Tier VII)
Hull Armor (mm) 150/80/80   
Turret Armor (mm)    100/80/80
Max Speed - 35 (T32 has the same top speed)


So a US Tier VII beats a german Tier VIII in most categories.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Considering I hang out in #WoD every day, there's no way I could be serious.  I mean, we do occasionally discuss anime in there when we aren't talking about everything else nerdy. :p

Hence why I chose my response to be not-necessarily-serious. :p
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Hades

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Hades, you analysis is incomplete.

You forgot to take into acount plenty of things.  Let's take another looksy, shall we?

8,8 cm KwK 43 L/71
240 average damage
203 average penetration
.34 accuracy
7 rounds per minute
2.9 second aimtime
-6/+17 gun depression (downwards/upwards)   <--- kinda important, don't you think?

105 mm Gun T5E1
320 average damage     <---- but 80 points of damage difference
198 average penetration   <--- only 5 points of PEN differenc. Note that Tigers II's armor is 100.
.42 accuracy
5.25 rounds per minute
2.3 aimtime
-10/+25 gun depression



TIGER II (Tier VIII)
Hull Armor (mm) 102/76/51   
Turret Armor (mm)    279/127/107
Max speed  - 28


T29 (Tier VII)
Hull Armor (mm) 150/80/80   
Turret Armor (mm)    100/80/80
Max Speed - 35 (T32 has the same top speed)


So a US Tier VII beats a german Tier VIII in most categories.
http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/PzKpfw_VIB_Tiger_II Wat. Tiger 2's armor is 150 mm thick angled at I believe 40 or 50 degrees of slope.

http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/T29 Wat. 102 frontal armor thickess.

I also had depression listed before on the guns, derp, and that 80 isn't as big of a difference as it seems to be due to the fire rate differences.

Trashman, stop talking out of your ass here too like you did in Gen Disc before you get banned again. :p
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline Scotty

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He mislabelled his statistics at the bottom.  They are otherwise correct.

The biggest problem with the King Tiger is the lower mantlet.  The thickness on that part of the (very visible, very easy to hit) armor is something like 40 or 45 mm.  Even angled at 45 degrees, I can go through it with a Sherman's 76 mm.

 

Offline Hades

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He mislabelled his statistics at the bottom.  They are otherwise correct.

The biggest problem with the King Tiger is the lower mantlet.  The thickness on that part of the (very visible, very easy to hit) armor is something like 40 or 45 mm.  Even angled at 45 degrees, I can go through it with a Sherman's 76 mm.
It's thicker than that, 100mm at 30-40 degrees, which is too thick for that. Tell me your name on WoTs and when I buy it back, I can show you. :p
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline TrashMan

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Trashman, stop talking out of your ass here too like you did in Gen Disc before you get banned again. :p

Take your own advice then.

There's a reason King Tiger is called a "tin can" and why everyone complains about German tanks. Unless of course, everyone but you is wrong. Surely there can't be anything behind such a big number of complaints?
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Hades

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There's also plenty of people, like me, who have played most of them (including the tier 10 ones) and find them to be fine.

So... point?
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL