[General Battuta]

The era of ignorance on the part of the American public towards it's governments' foreign adventures, both past and present, is/has rapidly come to an end. I think that if anyone's discussing politics these days, they know that there's a problem with America and that it needs to be fixed.

Prove that this is true. How do you know that Americans are more aware of foreign policy than they were in the past?

In its early years, World War II was a divisive war like any other. Was public awareness somehow lower then?

I'll give you a book to read if you want to learn more about what you're talking about. You're young, and it's easy to assume that because you don't know about something happening in the past, it didn't happen.

[General Battuta]

Furthermore,

I think that if anyone's discussing politics these days, they know that there's a problem with America and that it needs to be fixed.

What problem exists now that did not exist in the past 100 or 200 years?

[Flipside]

It's more a question of 'values' (not moral values, values as in amounts) people are convinved there's a lot more bad stuff these days, and the truth is, even with balancing for the increased population, this isn't actually true.

[General Battuta]

It's more a question of 'values' (not moral values, values as in amounts) people are convinved there's a lot more bad stuff these days, and the truth is, even with balancing for the increased population, this isn't actually true.

Are people convinced of that, though? Hasn't every generation, at every point in history, believed that there's a lot more bad stuff these days?

[Flipside]

Oh definately, it's an ongoing thing, generation after generation. I suppose the only thing that has really changed is access to the information over a much wider area, so we have learned that every country in the world has the same problems. This, I agree, is not indicative of anything getting worse, it's just that someone turned on the light on the Human race and many people don't like what they see.

I.E. That people don't do evil stuff because they are 'evil', but because they are 'people'

[General Battuta]

They're very silly, then - as pointed out in that article I linked, the human race has become enormously more decent over the past 200 years.

[Flipside]

The world is a silly place unfortunately.

I've always pointed this thing about 'morals', we go on about teenager pregnancy being immoral when 100 years ago it was the norm. That's always been the problem with people confusing 'Moral behaviour' with 'Ethical Behaviour'.

[Unknown Target]

Oh definately, it's an ongoing thing, generation after generation. I suppose the only thing that has really changed is access to the information over a much wider area, so we have learned that every country in the world has the same problems.

Sounds like people need to get together and stop the cycle.

[Grizzly]

-Joshua-, to be honest I think that the standard

"Oh what, you don't believe your country does X?" (specifically America these days)

is basically just a troll comment. An era of ignorance on the part of the American public towards it's governments' foreign adventures, both past and present, is rapidly coming to a close. I think that if anyone's discussing politics these days, they know that there's a problem with America and that it needs to be fixed.

And no, I really do not think America only supports democracies. In fact, I can not think of any statements I made which could attribute towards me thinking that (I mean... WHAT?). However, I am quite sure that the NATO (that is who I meant with 'us') presence in Afghanistan has something to do with getting the country more stable. Because then, they can mine their vast amounts of natural resources and we can buy them.

Then by "us" you must have meant Western Europe/North America?

But yea, our presence in Afghanistan really was towards promoting stability in the region...but instead of actually giving them the resources that they need, we try to help sides fight over what little resources in the area there are.

A friend of mine wondered why we send gunships to Afghanistan instead of cows? It seems that that's what they'd fight over most...the few resources that they have. Why don't we let more of the public in on what Israel's doing in Gaza? Maybe that would help build pressure in the US Government for Israel and Gaza to come to peaceful terms, that includes Israel giving up some land. Not a ton, an equal amount of land for land.

There have been a few studies which say that Afghenistan has an awfull lot of natural resources, such as gold, hidden. They are just too busy shooting each other to exploit it. Now that China has decided to keep their natural resources for themselves, 'we' (As in the EU and such) would have a great interest in securing those.

[Unknown Target]

There have been a few studies which say that Afghenistan has an awfull lot of natural resources, such as gold, hidden. They are just too busy shooting each other to exploit it. Now that China has decided to keep their natural resources for themselves, 'we' (As in the EU and such) would have a great interest in securing those.

You're right...but that would take a lot of infrastructure investment, a lot of people and electricity and jobs to be able to use ecologically.

Yet all we're doing is trying this stuff with guns and corporate/government contracts. Neither really represent the actual people involved, IMO. For instance, you don't see many millionaires in the military, yet they're the ones in office and running the companies.

[General Battuta]

Oh definately, it's an ongoing thing, generation after generation. I suppose the only thing that has really changed is access to the information over a much wider area, so we have learned that every country in the world has the same problems.

Sounds like people need to get together and stop the cycle.

Stop the cycle of thinking things are worse than they were last generation when they're actually improving, definitely. Why don't you help out?

[Flipside]

The thing is, there a little side of me in a white labcoat saying "Friction between internal groups generates a lot of the heat that powers the Engine of humanity". Coffee is hot because the molecules are constantly bouncing off of each other (edit: Yes, I know not strictly true, it's the other way round, but you get the meaning ), there's lots of energy in there, it's kind of the same dynamic in humanity. The hard part is finding a way of doing it without stabbing the other molecules on the way past

We are getting there, but perceptions are usually centred around a very small part of society for a very small space of its existence.

[Unknown Target]

The thing is, there a little side of me in a white labcoat saying "Friction between internal groups generates a lot of the heat that powers the Engine of humanity". Coffee is hot because the molecules are constantly bouncing off of each other (edit: Yes, I know not strictly true, it's the other way round, but you get the meaning ), there's lots of energy in there, it's kind of the same dynamic in humanity. The hard part is finding a way of doing it without stabbing the other molecules on the way past

We are getting there, but perceptions are usually centred around a very small part of society for a very small space of its existence.

I like to look at fluidic flow myself.

[General Battuta]

There's a difference between that and the problem we're trying to help Unknown Target cure. UT's problem is that he doesn't understand the historical causes of an issue, so he's unable to figure out how to address it. Wanting to improve things is good. Wanting to improve things without knowing why they happen or how to fix them is bad.

You can't attack a problem from a position of naivete. Systems are complex. You need to understand that complexity before you can figure out where to intervene for the best effect. Education is critical.

[Unknown Target]

There's a difference between that and the problem we're trying to help Unknown Target cure. UT's problem is that he doesn't understand the historical causes of an issue, so he's unable to figure out how to address it. Wanting to improve things is good. Wanting to improve things without knowing why they happen or how to fix them is bad.

Why do you automatically assume that that history or theory written from looking at that history can not be wrong? The meanings of history can change depending on whoever interprets it.

[General Battuta]

It's not an issue of interpretation. You need to present data for there to be any interpretation at all. When you make a claim, you need more than a gut feeling to go on. I agree with many of your issues, but you do a poor job of proving that they exist. You need to be able to ground idealism in the empirical.

[Unknown Target]

It's not an issue of interpretation. You need to present data for there to be any interpretation at all. When you make a claim, you need more than a gut feeling to go on. I agree with many of your issues, but you do a poor job of proving that they exist. You need to be able to ground idealism in the empirical.

Numbers can be misread.

[The E]

So you're saying that you don't need statistics, you don't need historical precedents, you can make your plans using only the power of your mind?

[Unknown Target]

So you're saying that you don't need statistics, you don't need historical precedents, you can make your plans using only the power of your mind?

Well it's another possibility. I mean, I doubt the Constitution was written using just statistical inquiries.

[General Battuta]

It's not an issue of interpretation. You need to present data for there to be any interpretation at all. When you make a claim, you need more than a gut feeling to go on. I agree with many of your issues, but you do a poor job of proving that they exist. You need to be able to ground idealism in the empirical.

Numbers can be misread.

Absolutely. So can words.

But it's better than having nothing at all. You've presented a lot of bad plans because you don't understand the systems you're trying to work with. You can do better.

I was an activist for years; I've helped in efforts to elect presidents and senators. It's not done by feeling good and wanting change. It's done by having a plan.