Author Topic: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?  (Read 10253 times)

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How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
One thing that always struck me about FS2, aside from awesomeness of course, was how sluggish even the fastest fighters sometimes seem.  150 m/s translates to what, 500 or so kilometers per hour?  In your typical flight combat sim, arcade or otherwise, even slower aircraft easily break 700. 

Before I begin, I will say that I understand why its a good idea for FreeSpace 2 (as it originally stands) to have comparitively slow fighters.  When fighters with high speed are combined with high mobility, acceleration, and an AI that enjoys randomly messing around with all these variables to try and avoid getting hit, you find that it is a complete pain in the butt to actually hit fighter-sized things if they don't want you to hit them.  But considering some of the things the FS2 Open project makes possible, it should in theory be possible to negate this problem via one of a few methods. 


1.  Automated aim.  If you have played the Wings of Dawn campaign, the "Promethius Frame" had this applied to its blasters (they automatically aimed at the enemy's reticle, but don't alter their course after being fired).  Suffice to say, this particular craft had a rather large "auto-aim zone," and to remain a challenge you would probably want to limit it to, say, the very middle 10% of the screen. 

2.  Slightly spreading overly powerful and rapid-firing guns.  That is to say, like those in Ace Combat or other modern flight sims.  If you have played them, you know how few bullets it actually takes to tear apart an enemy aircraft.  Putting a similar system in effect for fighter weapons here would allow higher speeds to be viable here to some extent as well.  This of course has problems though, as FS2 AI tends to be pretty good at aiming where it needs to in order to hit something, so AI will generally tear apart players too easily unless they are modified to be at least slightly "bad at aiming" their primary weapons.  Some balancing would need to be done with capital ship health and weaponry power too. 

3.  Slower turn and acceleration speeds for the now-faster fighters.  If your turn rate is decreased, and you can't speed up or slow down as quickly as before, then you will be easier to hit.  Likewise, it is easier to aim your own fighter's guns at the enemy if both of you are turning more slowly.  Honestly, the fastest turning FS2 fighters turn at speeds over twice that of even the fastest turning modern fighters. 


Anyway, just some thoughts on the matter.  It wouldn't necessarily be a purely cosmetic change either, but could allow for new tactics to become viable in combat (for instance, actually strafing capital ships with fly-bys instead of just standing back and "sniping" them, or dashing in, launching torpedoes/missiles, doing a 180 and getting away from their guns).  One thing I notice is how close-strafing runs against capital ships, with all their new beauty and potentially cinematic "trench run" moments given to them by all our model designers, are really not a very smart thing to do in Freespace because fighters are so slow that the ship's defensive turrets will pound away at you the entire time.

I am not saying that Freespace should become Ace Combat or something (though I would like to see someone figure out how to allow you to aspect-lock 4 enemies at once sometime), but it would be interesting to try working with high speed concepts after all the time we have spent perfecting the use of the original FS2 style of gameplay, and FS2 Open has the capability to do so without making it a total pain like it would be with the original FS2 engine.  Plus, we would likely hear far fewer complaints about overly long node runs in missions if we had fighters capable of 400m/s (on that note, capital ships could be allowed to move at 50-200 m/s themselves, opening up the possibility of blitzkrieg/breakthrough tactics and missions, and simply being able to have player-controlled capital ships that can be fun to maneuver around). 



 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
A lot of up-and-coming mods have been playing with this - SAFSO has fast glide-heavy combat with a lot of autoaim, FotG is doing something similar but I think without glide. Beyond the Red Line of course did it first in its blockbuster demo. Droid's FreeSpace Quest has super fast capships as well and should be awesome.

The Fury AI from Blue Planet 2 (and parallel developed AI in WoD and FotG and Diaspora) really helps make this kind of combat work better.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
Reduce accelerations and make it so that ships turn faster at lower speed. This would mean that in straight line, ships could go pretty fast, but getting them up to maximum speed would take significant time, and to maneuver effectively you would be required to reduce speed...

Energy bleed while maneuvering could be considered for gameplay reasons - even though in flight sims most airplanes do go quite fast at straight line, speeds usually deteriorate as the energy state of the aircraft diminishes. Typical furball speeds are about the same or significantly lower than fighter speeds in FS2.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
Yeah that's true, modern dogfights are often about who can go slowest without stalling.

 
Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
Ah, haven't gotten to Blue Planet yet (I've heard so many good things about it, so I am "saving" it for after I play some other mods first).   

I am somewhat new still, which mod is SAFSO an acronym for? 

Edit:  Have any mods that use some form of Freespace setting tried it yet?  Or only the massive conversions and major alteration mods so far? 

 

Offline The E

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
SAFSO == Stellar Assault for FSO. Somewhere among the hosted projects.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
Edit:  Have any mods that use some form of Freespace setting tried it yet?  Or only the massive conversions and major alteration mods so far?

Not really. Kinda the Syrk demo, but unfortunately it did not play very well. I suspect that team will pull itself together in time for their main release though.

 

Offline JGZinv

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
FringeSpace is another WIP TC that will be more fast and action oriented as well. We're just struggling with content building...

Tachyon is what we're based on, which you can see how that works here.
http://youtu.be/eg6u5o0Fonk?hd=1

That's with slow ships...

The problem with cap ship strafing is that without a well tuned defense screen on the part of the cap, fast fighters can tear right
through several cruisers at will. Obviously there's weapon balance in terms of what you can mount per fighter class too. Unfortunately
Tach did neither of these.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 06:51:50 pm by JGZinv »
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Offline Sushi

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
Wow, this takes me back. :)

The way I think of it these days is that it's like being on a motorcycle or wave runner: what's important isn't how fast you're going, but how fast it feels. Vanilla Freespace tends to feel a bit slow, especially with the heavy fighters and big bombers. As already pointed out, there are a lot of (pretty successful) ways to fix this.


 
Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
I often fiddle with excessive speedy ships and I usually enjoy it personally but I am often imperceptive enough that I don't often see the AI issues faster speeds would cause. Example, in the mini EVE mod I made I originally had fighters at 350ms on average and drones exceeding 500ms. This completely borked the Drone's ability to combat stationary ships as they are sooooooo fast that by time they align to attack a large ship they're already too close and have to veer off to avoid collisions. With that lil mishap on me I reduced drone speed to 300ms and fighter speed to 200ms. The results are pretty positive in open space. Still a bit borky against big ships. This is with DEFAULT AI mind you.

More or less, in my opinion, using the default AI in FS2 you shouldn't go near 500ms at all for anything. Maybe only for highly scripted objects. 300ms is decent but things can get very chaotic very fast. 200ms in my experience is a decent speed. Enemy fighters will dogfight like normal with few issues and doesn't feel like a snail pace.

Size is another factor. The 300ms drones I fought against in my mod were virtually impossible to hit with standard projectile style weapons. Easy with beam weapons but still, for the sake of difficulty I'd avoid having small sized craft going at ludicrous speeds.
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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
FotG will have significantly faster fighter speeds, and as they are very small, this will pretty much necessitate some sort of computer assisted targeting in many cases.  Wanderer has helped a lot with the code in that area, but we still need a bindable toggle for it (which we can do with the new pilot code).  However, my main concern is that this autoaim would make it impossible to hit a player in multi, since you would need to lead shoot, as we have server side hit detection.  I fear that relying on autoaim for high speed combat is going to make multi very difficult to pull off, does anyone have any evidence for this one way or the other yet?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 10:17:59 am by chief1983 »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
I suspect you are correct.

  

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
It's not impossible

I used to bulls-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
It's not impossible

I used to bulls-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home

But you weren't using a targeting computer

 

Offline JGZinv

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
and they weren't much larger than two meters either....
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Offline Droid803

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
Yeah, I had to turn on autoaim with a small FoV for dogfights not to take forever and a day for 300m/s ships.
Then again, additive weapon velocity messes a lot of it up too.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
Increased rate of fire, projectile velocity and damage, more difficult to hit but devastating when you do.

I always thought the FreeSpace way of dealing with damage was somewhat silly.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
That's not really absurd though.  You can be brought down by enough ants, or bees, even if one won't provide a significant allergic reaction.  We do have a pretty high ROF, and I believe we have a fairly fast weapon speed, but with server side hit detection, even if you fired an instantaneous beam directly at your target, you could still end up firing behind it as far as the server is concerned.  Therein lies the major weakness of server side detection, without movement prediction.
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Offline Droid803

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
Increased rate of fire, projectile velocity and damage, more difficult to hit but devastating when you do.

I always thought the FreeSpace way of dealing with damage was somewhat silly.

That devolves into spamming aimlessly into the void while spinning and then having stuff just dying anyway.
Not too fulfilling, if dogfighting the Cordi are any indication :P
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Offline JGZinv

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Re: How well would significantly faster vehicles work?
We should get around to those multiplayer tests, between Stellar Assault, FotG, and ourselves.
We had that earlier thread on multi based object updates and hit detection being a concern - which degraded rather quickly, but
I don't think anyone did any significant testing to see what the results would be with our speedy mods.
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