[Mustang19]

I swear you guys are worse than my grandma when it comes to the internet.

General Battuta, please don't be the first to respond.



Early Western European societies regarded being pudgy or with a fine layer of fat as being attractive. Much of Europe has an obesity problem.


What sort of historic and societal trends can you think of that might explain Europe's current problem?

Okay well we answered that one pretty fast. Question for OP! Early Western European societies regarded the universe as being created by a old white guy with a beard. Much of Europe has an atheism problem.

What sort of historic and societal trends can you think of that might explain Europe's current problem?

[Ravenholme]

I swear you guys are worse than my grandma when it comes to the internet.

General Battuta, please don't be the first to respond.



Early Western European societies regarded being pudgy or with a fine layer of fat as being attractive. Much of Europe has an obesity problem.


What sort of historic and societal trends can you think of that might explain Europe's current problem?

Okay well we answered that one pretty fast. Question for OP! Early Western European societies regarded the universe as being created by a old white guy with a beard. Much of Europe has an atheism problem.

What sort of historic and societal trends can you think of that might explain Europe's current problem?

That phase that all teenagers go through where they rebel against their parents? /WASP

(N.B. This is NOT my view)

[Mars]

Atheism problem?

[Nuclear1]

atheism problem.

lolwut

[Kosh]

Okay well we answered that one pretty fast. Question for OP! Early Western European societies regarded the universe as being created by a old white guy with a beard. Much of Europe has an atheism problem.

What sort of historic and societal trends can you think of that might explain Europe's current problem?

How exactly is atheism a "problem"?

[The E]

I think you misunderstand Mustang's intentions. Look at the original post:

Early Western European societies regarded being pudgy or with a fine layer of fat as being attractive. Much of Europe has an obesity problem.

What sort of historic and societal trends can you think of that might explain Europe's current problem?

Which is posing a question without actually giving any facts or statistics about the obesity problem and just posits that one exists, and then asking for data to prove that said problem arises from historical and societal trends.

Mustang's question,

Early Western European societies regarded the universe as being created by a old white guy with a beard. Much of Europe has an atheism problem.

What sort of historic and societal trends can you think of that might explain Europe's current problem?

Is just the same, just done over-the-top style. I do not think that Mustang really believes Atheism to be a problem.

[Nuclear1]

Well, you could phrase anything like that in that case:

Early Western European societies regarded the private amassing of wealth and economic advancement as empowering for the masses. Much of Europe has a capitalism problem.

What sort of historic and societal trends can you think of that might explain Europe's current problem?

A lot of people regard atheism as a positive step for mankind.  Obesity is a health problem. 

The question is fair, but it's not really a good idea to label atheism, democracy, or capitalism as "problems" as you would describe obesity or lung cancer.

[The E]

Indeed. But the first step you have to do is to establish that there is a problem in the first place. Which is trivially easy, if you look around a bit. One should not just simply posit that a problem exists, one should offer proof.

Second, generalizing "Europe" is a really bad idea, just as it is a bad idea to generalize America into one homogenous blob, given the multitude of cultural and economic factors that play into a problem such as obesity.

[WeatherOp]

I think intellect creates the problem, by allowing the species to evolve their ways faster than it is biologically able to adapt to.  The intellect "over drives" the progress of the species, yet fails to provide the level of control needed to tame the animal.

Intellect is an interesting subject.

Intellect leads to knowledge, which leads to progress, progress leads to more knowledge. More knowledge leads to technology which leads to Easier living.  However, Easier living decreases progress, which decreases knowledge. So you end up with Intellect and Technology, a dangerous combination. Man's intellect tells him he created technology and is intelligent even though he knows absolutely nothing.

[General Battuta]

[However, Easier living decreases progress, which decreases knowledge

Whoa whoa whoa whoa, what? You think we'd be making more progress if we lived a life of austerity and horror, gnawing on wallpaper and each other's corpses?

[The E]

Given that the pace of technological and scientific progress isn't exactly slowing down, I'd say that assuming that more comfortable living hinders progress is pretty wrong.

[WeatherOp]

[However, Easier living decreases progress, which decreases knowledge

Whoa whoa whoa whoa, what? You think we'd be making more progress if we lived a life of austerity and horror, gnawing on wallpaper and each other's corpses?

Where exactly did you pull that one from?  No we'd be making more personal progress if most people had to work more for what they get. I don't know about you, but I had it pretty easy growing up. That ease of life left me with spending hours upon hours of doing absolutely nothing. With what I know now, I wonder what I could have accomplished had I had to learn things that I took for granted. An example, had I watched more closely when my father(who is a Master Mechanic) completely tore an engine down and repaired it.

Given that the pace of technological and scientific progress isn't exactly slowing down, I'd say that assuming that more comfortable living hinders progress is pretty wrong.

Not yet it isn't. I don't know about where you live, but I look at the generation behind me with horror. Heck even my generation scares me.

[General Battuta]

Where exactly did you pull that one from?  No we'd be making more personal progress if most people had to work more for what they get. I don't know about you, but I had it pretty easy growing up. That ease of life left me with spending hours upon hours of doing absolutely nothing. With what I know now, I wonder what I could have accomplished had I had to learn things that I took for granted. An example, had I watched more closely when my father(who is a Master Mechanic) completely tore an engine down and repaired it.

And you would have been doing any better if you were living in the Congo, scrabbling for food and hiding from death squads and child slavers?

At least your easy life gave you the opportunity to learn something from your father. Leisure time is the great catalyst of progress; the move away from full-time hunter-gatherer life to the relatively less taxing (when done well) agricultural life probably triggered most of the technological development in human history.

[Unknown Target]

Where exactly did you pull that one from?  No we'd be making more personal progress if most people had to work more for what they get. I don't know about you, but I had it pretty easy growing up. That ease of life left me with spending hours upon hours of doing absolutely nothing. With what I know now, I wonder what I could have accomplished had I had to learn things that I took for granted. An example, had I watched more closely when my father(who is a Master Mechanic) completely tore an engine down and repaired it.

And you would have been doing any better if you were living in the Congo, scrabbling for food and hiding from death squads and child slavers?

At least your easy life gave you the opportunity to learn something from your father. Leisure time is the great catalyst of progress; the move away from full-time hunter-gatherer life to the relatively less taxing (when done well) agricultural life probably triggered most of the technological development in human history.

My life in the US is not exactly what I'd call "easy". Sure I'm not dodging bullets, but that's not the only way life can cause stress or hardship.

95% of the time myself or my compatriots are worrying whether or not they're going to end up on the street in 30 years because of decisions they're making now. That's pretty stressful.

What I'm saying is that comparing "ease of life" between people is rather silly. It always seems to me like in the end, you're just comparing whoever's life is more miserable and hating yourself when you think something is wrong with your life because yours isn't as bad as you think someone else's is.

[General Battuta]

At least for the moment, your life is ridiculously easy and awesome and so is mine. We have about the easiest lives humans have ever led. (possibly beaten by those damn Scandinavians) Even the impoverished in America today tend to lead better lives than they did 50 or 100 years ago.

We don't know how good we've got it. Hope global warming and (maybe) peak oil don't **** it all up!

[The E]

Not yet it isn't. I don't know about where you live, but I look at the generation behind me with horror. Heck even my generation scares me.

I'm sorry, but that's an invalid argument. It's the tired old "the new generation isn't as awesome as us" cliche, which is something that has popped up in every generation that has ever lived. So far, it has been consistently disproven, and is only kept alive because humans in general are massive suckers for hindsight bias.

EDIT: Further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_change
Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_shock

[General Battuta]

Not yet it isn't. I don't know about where you live, but I look at the generation behind me with horror. Heck even my generation scares me.

This quote could come from probably any year in the past 20,000.

[WeatherOp]

Where exactly did you pull that one from?  No we'd be making more personal progress if most people had to work more for what they get. I don't know about you, but I had it pretty easy growing up. That ease of life left me with spending hours upon hours of doing absolutely nothing. With what I know now, I wonder what I could have accomplished had I had to learn things that I took for granted. An example, had I watched more closely when my father(who is a Master Mechanic) completely tore an engine down and repaired it.

And you would have been doing any better if you were living in the Congo, scrabbling for food and hiding from death squads and child slavers?

At least your easy life gave you the opportunity to learn something from your father. Leisure time is the great catalyst of progress; the move away from full-time hunter-gatherer life to the relatively less taxing (when done well) agricultural life probably triggered most of the technological development in human history.

Ok, you've jumped off the bridge. Wanna try the cliff? Seriously, you are reading far into what I'm saying. When I say "easier life" what I'm talking about is the point where we are now. There is nothing wrong with an easier life and you are right having more time is likely what inspired technological progress. However, there is a tipping point to when that leisure time becomes complacency. Complacency then starts to kill desire to better yourself and surrounding because you've got it made.  Some pain and trouble gives desire to makes things better and better yourself which leads to progress.

[General Battuta]

Where exactly did you pull that one from?  No we'd be making more personal progress if most people had to work more for what they get. I don't know about you, but I had it pretty easy growing up. That ease of life left me with spending hours upon hours of doing absolutely nothing. With what I know now, I wonder what I could have accomplished had I had to learn things that I took for granted. An example, had I watched more closely when my father(who is a Master Mechanic) completely tore an engine down and repaired it.

And you would have been doing any better if you were living in the Congo, scrabbling for food and hiding from death squads and child slavers?

At least your easy life gave you the opportunity to learn something from your father. Leisure time is the great catalyst of progress; the move away from full-time hunter-gatherer life to the relatively less taxing (when done well) agricultural life probably triggered most of the technological development in human history.

Ok, you've jumped off the bridge. Wanna try the cliff? Seriously, you are reading far into what I'm saying. When I say "easier life" what I'm talking about is the point where we are now. There is nothing wrong with an easier life and you are right having more time is likely what inspired technological progress. However, there is a tipping point to when that leisure time becomes complacency. Complacency then starts to kill desire to better yourself and surrounding because you've got it made.  Some pain and trouble gives desire to makes things better and better yourself which leads to progress.

Well okay, that's an interesting argument, but why are we hitting it now instead of 50 years ago?

I think you're violating the principle of mediocrity. I don't think there's any evidence for that kind of tipping point. I could just as well argue that the profusion of creativity and progress in the golden age we live is in evidence that more leisure time is better.

Pain and trouble are painful and troublesome. A happy mind is a productive mind.

[WeatherOp]

Where exactly did you pull that one from?  No we'd be making more personal progress if most people had to work more for what they get. I don't know about you, but I had it pretty easy growing up. That ease of life left me with spending hours upon hours of doing absolutely nothing. With what I know now, I wonder what I could have accomplished had I had to learn things that I took for granted. An example, had I watched more closely when my father(who is a Master Mechanic) completely tore an engine down and repaired it.

And you would have been doing any better if you were living in the Congo, scrabbling for food and hiding from death squads and child slavers?

At least your easy life gave you the opportunity to learn something from your father. Leisure time is the great catalyst of progress; the move away from full-time hunter-gatherer life to the relatively less taxing (when done well) agricultural life probably triggered most of the technological development in human history.

Ok, you've jumped off the bridge. Wanna try the cliff? Seriously, you are reading far into what I'm saying. When I say "easier life" what I'm talking about is the point where we are now. There is nothing wrong with an easier life and you are right having more time is likely what inspired technological progress. However, there is a tipping point to when that leisure time becomes complacency. Complacency then starts to kill desire to better yourself and surrounding because you've got it made.  Some pain and trouble gives desire to makes things better and better yourself which leads to progress.

Well okay, that's an interesting argument, but why are we hitting it now instead of 50 years ago?

I think you're violating the principle of mediocrity. I don't think there's any evidence for that kind of tipping point. I could just as well argue that the profusion of creativity and progress in the golden age we live is in evidence that more leisure time is better.

Pain and trouble are painful and troublesome. A happy mind is a productive mind.

A happy mind is a productive mind, however a lazy mind is an un-productive mind. I read somewhere that China will surpass the US in the number of inventions a year in just a few years. Why is that? America should be the happiest country on earth. We are(or were), however we are also the most laziest country on earth. However, China wants what we have. They want it badly. However, likely as the same with America and possibly Europe(can't say for sure because I don't live there.) they will also fall into complacently.

Just the other day I heard people calling radio stations up because their electricity was off. They griped despite the fact that they still had a house. I heard of people calling up news stations and griping because they cut in to do weather coverage while the ballgame was on or American Idol was on. This all while people were dieing. While this may just be a localized thing here in the southern US, I don't know. If that isn't a sign of complacency I don't know what is. Heck you could even throw in obesity as another plausible effect. 

Well, for example, look at me. I have yard work to do and a tree to cut down, yet I'm in the house being lazy on the computer doing absolutely nothing profitable to my being.