Author Topic: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands  (Read 32205 times)

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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Does anyone really buy Bin Ladens death?
Uh, I do.

Got a reason to doubt?
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Offline Drogoth

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Re: Does anyone really buy Bin Ladens death?
I'm pretty sure it was legit.

Let's get serious, if it was a fake, Obama would have timed it way closer to the election
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Offline Mars

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Re: Does anyone really buy Bin Ladens death?
If they had faked it, don't you think it would look pretty bad when Osama posted a new video?

Either he's actually in a top secret hole, or he's dead.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Does anyone really buy Bin Ladens death?
Even the "Top Secret Hole" route would be stupid. The only value bin Laden has is as a figurehead, I sort of doubt that he has much access to al qaeda's operations.
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Offline newman

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Re: Does anyone really buy Bin Ladens death?
Either way they're certain he's not coming back. Saying they killed the world's most wanted terrorist who has eluded capture for 10 years, and then he resurfaces after that - now that'd be really bad pr. The kind that loses you the elections.
The photo that initially surfaced on the net and was released by several news media was a fake, but it wasn't one officially released by the US media and I very much doubt Bin Laden is still alive. The only thing that might, and I stress might be the case is that he actually died of natural causes and they wanted to get the credit for his death, so they faked a story. But I highly doubt even that. It was probably just a news media f***up since they failed to spot an obvious fake. Would have been nice for the sea burial to have been skipped so the conspiracy theorists stay quiet on that one.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Does anyone really buy Bin Ladens death?
I want his longform death certificate

NOW
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
If Seal Team Six had the opportunity to arrest bin Laden rather than kill him, I bet they would have--but like any law enforcement or military raid, the lives of the police or soldiers takes precedence; if they can't safely apprehend someone, or if they believe a suspect has or will draw a weapon and it's likely someone will be killed, they'll shoot first to defend themselves.

Considering that Seal Team Six isn't no police with a legal warrant or anything like that, that's basically no different than you breaking into anyone else's home and then shooting the occupants because they tried to or might have tried to defend themselves from you, therefore putting your life at risk.

Now, out of political correctness I'm not really arguing Osama's case here, just against the silly notion that it's ok to give precedence for the lives of police or soldiers when they're the aggressor. If I pull a gun on you first then of course the fact that you pull or might pull a gun back on me doesn't allow me to claim self-defense if I shoot you to "defend myself".

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
You're right, military isn't law enforcement, and I made that distinction.

This was no different than raiding an enemy commander's bunker to capture him and his lieutenants.  It's an armed conflict, and the soldiers put their lives first.  Likewise, when the police execute a legal search warrant and are met with someone with a weapon, the police are allowed to use force to stop them. 
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Buckshee Rounds

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
If Seal Team Six had the opportunity to arrest bin Laden rather than kill him, I bet they would have--but like any law enforcement or military raid, the lives of the police or soldiers takes precedence; if they can't safely apprehend someone, or if they believe a suspect has or will draw a weapon and it's likely someone will be killed, they'll shoot first to defend themselves.

Considering that Seal Team Six isn't no police with a legal warrant or anything like that, that's basically no different than you breaking into anyone else's home and then shooting the occupants because they tried to or might have tried to defend themselves from you, therefore putting your life at risk.

Now, out of political correctness I'm not really arguing Osama's case here, just against the silly notion that it's ok to give precedence for the lives of police or soldiers when they're the aggressor. If I pull a gun on you first then of course the fact that you pull or might pull a gun back on me doesn't allow me to claim self-defense if I shoot you to "defend myself".

The problem here is a figure like Osama blurs the line between military commander and international criminal. He isn't the head of a country's armed forces, but does control something close to a war-fighting force (or used to). If we could legally say Osama is an officer in the armed forces of enemy nation X then we could shoot him dead without repurcussions. Unfortunately Al Qaeda isn't an official army, it's barely even an organisation, more like an ideal such as Communism or Nazism. You can't destroy something like that by killing one guy, which is why Osama's death is largely symbolic, but powerfully so.

Quote
I want his longform death certificate

NOW

LOL!  :lol:

Obama has the patience of a saint, if I were him I'd have asked Trump for his certificate, greedy corporate c*nt.

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Offline Marcov

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
Flash bang grenades?

If Osama was captured, would it be worth the effort, or it's really not much better than killing him?
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Offline headdie

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
If everyone had their heads screwed on properly (though that is far from guaranteed) when the order was drafted and signed then it will have been a capture order, the political consequences would and will be severe as all those who support the jihad against the West now have a very public rallying cry, especially as, from their perspective, it is easy to spin these events as America sending black-ops assassins.

Now as Nuclear1 said when instigating operations against armed opponents it is impossible to account for all the variables, all osama's bodyguards had to do was wear gas masks and stab vests to bring about a situation where only flash-bangs are going to be effective as an incapacitation device.  Also should the entry team not identify Osama amongst said bodyguards during a shoot out with them and you could easily end up killing him without realizing.  There is a lot that can go wrong during these sorts of ops and training + equipment can only improve an op's chance of success not guarantee it

As for the morality of military raids like this one which is the greater evil, allowing Osama to carry on being a figurehead for the jihad or breaching a nations sovereignty for a few hours in an attempt to capture Osama for trial?

neither option is faultless but personally i prefer the latter
Flash bang grenades?

If Osama was captured, would it be worth the effort, or it's really not much better than killing him?

FB's are not perfect, also you have to get the grenade behind any cover the bad guys are using and throwing accurately is not easy with bursts of weapons fire flying at you.  you have to throw either from behind you cover so cant see where you are throwing it and visual memory is not perfect in itself, or to see the target as you throw it requires exposing yourself and your vital and only lightly protected head to said weapons fire which if the body guards have any reasonable level of training will be fairly accurate
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
i thinik i would have perfered taking bin ladin and family to gitmo and torture them until they give up the rest of their organization. and im not talking lame american torture techniques, im talking the vlad treatment here. except we would have modern medicine keeping him alive for as long as possible.

too bad he was shot in the head and dumped out at sea, rather than whisked away to some dark place we will never hear about to experience what you describe.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
You're right, military isn't law enforcement, and I made that distinction.

This was no different than raiding an enemy commander's bunker to capture him and his lieutenants.  It's an armed conflict, and the soldiers put their lives first.  Likewise, when the police execute a legal search warrant and are met with someone with a weapon, the police are allowed to use force to stop them.

Yes, and none of that contradicts what I'm saying, which is that the life of the aggressor should not take precedence. It's not an unfair requirement, because no one's forced to be an aggressor: if you think you won't be able to give the other guy's life precedence over yours when you're the aggressor, then... just don't be the aggressor.

 
Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
What does it tell you about a country who calls people criminals, when the criminals are so afraid of getting caught that they're willing to go out shooting rather than be given a trial? Are those trials really that fair, then?
Perhaps the criminals value their freedom and drug money over the lives of the good guys.

As for Osama- isn't it an honor to die in battle against the infidels, and a dishonor to be taken prisoner?
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
It's amazing what you can accomplish when the Playstation network goes down  ;7


Already mentioned elsewhere in topic = my view.

Figurehead target taken out, strategic planning elements of Al'Quaeda (sp?asificare) are still in place. This has kicked a hornets nest, but we're in anyway so ........... Enjoy the beardy one death.

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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
Only did it so the UK didn't get all the attention. :P

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
As I've said elsewhere they also found the black box from that Air France flight that crashed in 2009 on the same day. Looks like May 2nd was a good day for finding things you'd been looking for. :p
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Offline T-LoW

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
"The President announced that Osama was killed in combat. Oh really? Isn't dead already? Let's say he was alive: quite ****ed up game of the U.S. government. For years, you pretend that you find him, while he had been in sight all the time.

He wasn't found because he had been a justification for the "war on terror". Now that the election results in the basement, the U.S. government can pull it off the road - just now. Why not earlier? The second and third reason the wedding in the UK on Friday and the day of work on Sunday ... and many of the American people are cheering.

Disgusting."

Well my personal opinion isn't that harsh, but... :nervous:
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Offline headdie

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
more egg on ISI's face regarding this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13268517
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
more egg on ISI's face regarding this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13268517


Given ISI's documented history with supporting terrorism and militancy it makes you wonder if those "failures" were deliberate.
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