Author Topic: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands  (Read 32171 times)

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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
If they truly believe what is claimed, they are doing so because that is what they wish to believe and they have rejected all evidence to the contrary despite having a great deal of it at their fingertips. It renders them morally and socially reprehensible by default.
Scenario fulfillment.  Everybody cherrypicks their information to suit their worldview.  Some Palestinian Arabs are taught from birth to hate Israel and America, so they'll look for all the evidence available that lets them hate America.  Tea Partiers here do it to oppose healthcare.  Liberals do it here to support gun control.  Extreme right wingers do it to hate Muslims.

Not everyone is as reasonable as most people here.

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For that matter, he is directly equating knowledge and ignorance as being morally equivalent. He himself has said so; "Either way, it's still bloodlust and a drive for vengeance, and each side sees themselves as justified."
Because it is.  Palestinians want revenge for their homes being bulldozed, we want vengeance for what somebody did on 9/11.

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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

Quite simply: you criticize McVeigh for not attacking the people directly responsible. But McVeigh managed to at least attacking the correct mechanisms that make such things as he was upset about possible. The same cannot be said of 9/11. It is at least a red herring in your argument.
And you don't think bin Laden didn't see capitalism and the average person living in a country that elects the leaders that sent troops to Saudi Arabia as being responsible for his perceived injustices?
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
Arguments that the truth is ours and the lies are theirs are all basically worth dismissing offhand.
Except that in this particular case, that's exactly what's going on.  We know Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11.  We know he was responsible for the attack on the Cole and the African embassy bombings.  We know he was responsible for any number of other terrorist acts.  These are basic, irrefutable truths.  The fact that none of those ordinary civilians in the World Trade Center were responsible, either directly or indirectly, for what has been going on in the Middle East for centuries is also a basic truth.  So if the citizens of certain countries want to spin it that they were, they're being self-delusional.  As NGTM-1R noted, they're culpable just by being willfully ignorant.  We don't even need to get into discussions about external vs. internal justifications...we're dealing with factual events, and the arrow points squarely in one direction.

I don't really give a **** about what a bunch of ass-backwards types halfway around the world  happen to believe is justified.  Bin Laden was a mass murderer.  He's dead now.  You can bet your ass I'm going to be happy, and you can bet your ass I see no moral issue with being happy.

(Also, it occurs to me that if I'd attacked this argument here the same way I did in a back-and-forth on Facebook, I'd probably wind up calling someone a pussy.  :p)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 01:45:27 am by Mongoose »

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
The fact that none of those ordinary civilians in the World Trade Center were responsible, either directly or indirectly, for what has been going on in the Middle East for centuries is also a basic truth.
Ugh.  Did you just completely ignore my post?

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So if the citizens of certain countries want to spin it that they were, they're being self-delusional.
Look, information and news not filtered or spun by governments in the Middle East are much more of luxuries than they are in the West.  Your average Middle Easterner in Palestine, Syria, or Saudi Arabia doesn't necessarily have the ability to access opposing viewpoints, mostly because those viewpoints are filtered out by their respective governments.  In fact, anyone who accesses that information or talks about usually ends up on the respective security service's watch list.


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As NGTM-1R noted, they're culpable just by being willfully ignorant.  We don't even need to get into discussions about external vs. internal justifications...we're dealing with factual events, and the arrow points squarely in one direction.
Again, you can say that because you have the luxury of a relatively free press and a relatively comfortable position to analyze all this from.  Again, a lot of the people who cheered on 9/11 were likely the people who didn't have the ability to pop open Wikipedia and browse through the history of US involvement in the Middle East.  They had A) their respective demagogue, B) their families and friends, and C) their situation and the evidence they could gather from it. 

So again:  Palestinian homes are demolished by Israel, average Palestinian looks at Israel with hatred.  All it takes is one close family or one religious leader to point out footage of Americans cheering on Israel for that Palestinian to hate America as well.  So when America gets attacked, they cheer it on, because the people they believed were cheering on the demolition of their homes got punished.

They believe that because they believe the information is correct, just as we do:  we have evidence that bin Laden carried out the attacks, including his own admittance.  They have evidence that the US financially supports Israel, that average Americans cheer on Israel, and that average Americans elect the politicians who provide financial support to Israel.  Therefore, in their view, average Americans are partly responsible for the demolition of their homes.

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I don't really give a **** about what a bunch of ass-backwards types halfway around the world.  happen to believe is justified.
Yeah, I'd rephrase that.  If someone else read like I did the first time, they would think you were referring to Arabs as ass-backwards types.

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Bin Laden was a mass murderer.  He's dead now.  You can bet your ass I'm going to be happy, and you can bet your ass I see no moral issue with being happy.
You can be happy that justice was done.  The same way you can be happy when a murderer gets sent to prison, but you don't need to say "good, I hope he gets ****ing raped in there."  That's the difference:  happy over seeing justice done, and just happy over someone's death.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
The fact that none of those ordinary civilians in the World Trade Center were responsible, either directly or indirectly, for what has been going on in the Middle East for centuries is also a basic truth.
Ugh.  Did you just completely ignore my post?
No, but I didn't see much relevance in it, just as I don't in most of what you wrote there.  I'm not denying that people living in certain parts of the Middle East may find it harder to access factual information, and thus may be more easily swayed by misinformation and rumors, but that doesn't change the fact that this isn't true for us.  Those people cheering in lower Manhattan and outside the White House knew exactly who Bin Laden was and what he had done, and this informed their reaction.  Whether or not the people in the Middle East likewise cheering on 9/11 were aware of the shakiness of their own beliefs is, quite frankly, irrelevant...they were still operating on falsehoods, and thus I don't see how any direct moral equivalence can be drawn.

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I don't really give a **** about what a bunch of ass-backwards types halfway around the world.  happen to believe is justified.
Yeah, I'd rephrase that.  If someone else read like I did the first time, they would think you were referring to Arabs as ass-backwards types.
I'm referring to anyone who operates based on ignorance and nothing more as "ass-backwards," whether it be crowds of flag-burning Arabs on 9/11 or rednecks who want to "shoot all dem Muslim turrists."

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
Whether or not the people in the Middle East likewise cheering on 9/11 were aware of the shakiness of their own beliefs is, quite frankly, irrelevant...they were still operating on falsehoods, and thus I don't see how any direct moral equivalence can be drawn.
What you're doing is comparing what we know about bin Laden with what we know about the people in the WTC and their lack of involvement in atrocities across the Middle East.  Of course we know that the people in the towers weren't responsible for Palestinian homes being demolished. 

They don't though.  It's not that most of them are willfully ignorant, it's just that they don't know any different.  For all they know, their information is correct, and they're right in their assumptions.

Since there wasn't anyone in the US saying that they wanted Palestinian homes bulldozed, they had a much harder time coming to their conclusions, but given the other evidence, they reached it.  We just had an easier time because bin Laden admitted doing it, but even at that, there's a lot of these guys around.

So what I'm doing is is comparing how we understand bin Laden's involvement in 9/11 and how they understand American involvement in Middle East affairs.  We believe justice was done, they believe justice was done.

Now, let me preface this next part with this:  I broke down into ****ing tears of joy watching the Times Square and White House celebrations.  Hell, I would have probably had the same reaction if he had been captured, put on trial, and found guilty.  But as soon as I saw people on Facebook saying things to the effect of "bin Laden's burning in Hell" or "hope you suffer for an eternity you bastard", I got sick.  Justice isn't about revenge, and justice isn't about bloodlust.  It's about ****ing justice.  Savages want revenge, savages want to know bad people are being raped in prison or burning in Hell for eternity.  Civilized people don't.  Part of our civilization is being humane even to the guilty.

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I'm referring to anyone who operates based on ignorance and nothing more as "ass-backwards," whether it be crowds of flag-burning Arabs on 9/11 or rednecks who want to "shoot all dem Muslim turrists."

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.  I kinda knew you better, but just wanted to make sure. :)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 02:20:29 am by Nuclear1 »
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
Now, let me preface this next part with this:  I broke down into ****ing tears of joy watching the Times Square and White House celebrations.  Hell, I would have probably had the same reaction if he had been captured, put on trial, and found guilty.  But as soon as I saw people on Facebook saying things to the effect of "bin Laden's burning in Hell" or "hope you suffer for an eternity you bastard", I got sick.  Justice isn't about revenge, and justice isn't about bloodlust.  It's about ****ing justice.  Savages want revenge, savages want to know bad people are being raped in prison or burning in Hell for eternity.  Civilized people don't.  Part of our civilization is being humane even to the guilty.
This clears up where you're coming from a lot, and I honestly pretty much agree with the way you feel about this part of it.  I was legitimately happy (at least to some extent...part of me didn't really know how to feel) when I heard the news, because I knew that we finally resolved at least one unfinished thread from ten years ago.  It might not have a massive practical effect, but we finally got him.  I didn't have any qualms whatsoever about the act of his death, but at the same time, I wasn't exactly ready to start dragging his corpse through the streets.  I wouldn't say I was flat-out disturbed by the sentiments like those you saw on Facebook, but I sure did roll my eyes at them.  I'm glad we treated his corpse with respect and disposed of it in that fashion, since we've all seen pictures of what happens when the mob gets its way as an alternative.  What's really prompted my backlash over some of this have been the statements that even those people who did gather in front of the White House were somehow "glorifying death" or acting in "bloodlust."  I couldn't disagree more with that, and I don't think I could ever see things from that viewpoint.

As for the other half of the discussion...I'm too tired to think through a proper response tonight. :p

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
Arguments that the truth is ours and the lies are theirs are all basically worth dismissing offhand.
Except that in this particular case, that's exactly what's going on.  We know Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11.  We know he was responsible for the attack on the Cole and the African embassy bombings.  We know he was responsible for any number of other terrorist acts.  These are basic, irrefutable truths.  The fact that none of those ordinary civilians in the World Trade Center were responsible, either directly or indirectly, for what has been going on in the Middle East for centuries is also a basic truth.

No it's not. First off, centuries? If you want to talk about basic truth you might want to pick up on your historical truths.   :nervous:

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So if the citizens of certain countries want to spin it that they were, they're being self-delusional.  As NGTM-1R noted, they're culpable just by being willfully ignorant.  We don't even need to get into discussions about external vs. internal justifications...we're dealing with factual events, and the arrow points squarely in one direction.

You think that the people who celebrated 9/11 in Palestine and the rednecks who celebrate when Arabs get massacred are willfully ignorant? You think people get their opinions by rationally weighing all the available information and reaching a conclusion? Hell, do you think you can do that? (You can't; nobody can.)

Constructing a world in which people who examine the same information you have and then proceed to disagree with you are morally wrong is going to take you some ugly places.

You're surrounded by Americans who believe the government ordered 9/11 and that the moon landing was fake, and they came up with those ideas in the context of our relatively transparent society. Imagine what it's like living under Hamas.

The assumptions said Palestinians grow up with, the things they learn from their environment, are fundamentally different from what we receive. Not only did they believe that 9/11 was justice done, they had every bit as much reason to believe it as we did to celebrate the death of bin Laden (and believe me, I was glad when bin Laden died) - namely, the reason provided by the combination of available information and the worldview created by their environment.

Hell, I can see where they're coming from. We live in a democratic government; our citizens are surely responsible for the actions of our leaders, right? And no, that's not the same as agreeing with them - counterargument is pointless unless you can argue why a Palestinian wouldn't believe this.

I don't think they were right, but they think they were right. The argument here isn't even that we have equal claim to be right - it's that our respective celebrations of these respective events proceeded from very similar beliefs.

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I don't really give a **** about what a bunch of ass-backwards types halfway around the world  happen to believe is justified.  Bin Laden was a mass murderer.  He's dead now.  You can bet your ass I'm going to be happy, and you can bet your ass I see no moral issue with being happy.

Ignoring what a bunch of ass-backwards types halfway around the world happen to believe is justified is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place.

Killing a man is never worthy of celebration. Sometimes, however, it is necessary; and that necessity should be met, perhaps, with satisfaction at a job well done, or relief at the (possible) prevention of future disaster, or knowledge that the punishment of a crime will, if all goes well, deter future crime. Celebration, though? That's a lot. In fact, that's glorifying bin Laden - making him into more than he was. He was a criminal, and in the end he died a criminal's death.

The biggest blow we can deliver to terrorism is to render it insignificant and go on with our lives. bin Laden rose to prominence because of his reputation for courage on the battlefield fighting an invading enemy. He wanted to be a leader of men and an implacable foe to occupiers. Celebrating his death at the hands of a foreign army is exactly what he'd want; nodding and moving on is exactly what he'd fear. Terrorism feeds on a cycle of violence and outrage, after all.

So, as for my own reaction? I was satisfied. It was a kind of closure. Do I think dancing in the streets in celebration of bin Laden's death was morally equivalent to dancing in the streets in celebration of 9/11? Not really; I see a big difference between celebrating the punishment of a criminal and celebrating a blow to a foreign occupier which involved enormous amounts of collateral damage (and no, that's not MY view of 9/11, but it's probably what those street dancers thought). But I feel that no matter how much better reason we might have to dance and celebrate, there's too much in common for me to be comfortable with it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 09:52:14 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
That's a fine comment, Tutta.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
I suppose my main concern is variables. Whilst we knew where he was and what he was doing, he was a known variable, now we are back to a load of unknown ones. Whilst there might be a certain phsychological boost to killing him, I don't think he ever expected to survive, to be honest, he was probably surprised that he survived as long as he did.

Politically, it might have been a good idea, strategically, I'm not so certain.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
Known unknowns and unknown unknowns?

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
alive he was a variable, dead he is a constant.
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Offline Buckshee Rounds

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
I suppose my main concern is variables. Whilst we knew where he was and what he was doing, he was a known variable, now we are back to a load of unknown ones. Whilst there might be a certain phsychological boost to killing him, I don't think he ever expected to survive, to be honest, he was probably surprised that he survived as long as he did.

Politically, it might have been a good idea, strategically, I'm not so certain.

Strategically it should be a practical blow to Al-Qaeda since it's been alluded to, though unconfirmed, that old binny was an active commander. Having said that the most recent muslim extremist attacks (Mumbai 2008) were completely independent of Al-Qaeda. Osama has succeeded in permeating violent anti-West sentiments beyond the scope of his own organisation.

We should be commiting more resources to stamping out the Taliban more than anything else. It's turned into a viscious cycle where ISAF wins an engagement, doesn't have the troop numbers to hold ground and pulls out again, letting the Taliban re-enter the area and happily plant IEDs on everything. Half measures can't work against a numberless and unseen enemy, there's only so many times the same battles can be fought before money and ammo are gone. I've heard this same story dozens of times from ncos over many different regiments.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
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Strategically it should be a practical blow to Al-Qaeda since it's been alluded to, though unconfirmed, that old binny was an active commander. Having said that the most recent muslim extremist attacks (Mumbai 2008) were completely independent of Al-Qaeda. Osama has succeeded in permeating violent anti-West sentiments beyond the scope of his own organisation.


I wouldn't exactly consider the Mumbai raid to be something aimed at the west. To the contrary it was the inevitable result of pakistan's deliberate support for terrorism and extremism as a means to strike against india.
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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
Schadenfreude is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others. It seems to fit this nicely.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
alive he was a variable, dead he is a constant.

Bin Laden is not Al Quaeda. We went from a known figure that the US claim to have still been organising terror, where we knew where he was and what he was doing to an unknown figure replacing him.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
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CORUSCANT — Obi-Wan Kenobi, the mastermind of some of the most devastating attacks on the Galactic Empire and the most hunted man in the galaxy, was killed in a firefight with Imperial forces near Alderaan, Darth Vader announced on Sunday.

In a late-night appearance in the East Room of the Imperial Palace, Lord Vader declared that “justice has been done” as he disclosed that agents of the Imperial Army and stormtroopers of the 501st Legion had finally cornered Kenobi, one of the leaders of the Jedi rebellion, who had eluded the Empire for nearly two decades. Imperial officials said Kenobi resisted and was cut down by Lord Vader's own lightsaber. He was later dumped out of an airlock.

Continues in http://www.galacticempiretimes.com/2011/05/09/galaxy/outer-rim/obi-wan-kenobi-is-killed.html

It's hilarious

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
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CORUSCANT — Obi-Wan Kenobi, the mastermind of some of the most devastating attacks on the Galactic Empire and the most hunted man in the galaxy, was killed in a firefight with Imperial forces near Alderaan, Darth Vader announced on Sunday.

In a late-night appearance in the East Room of the Imperial Palace, Lord Vader declared that “justice has been done” as he disclosed that agents of the Imperial Army and stormtroopers of the 501st Legion had finally cornered Kenobi, one of the leaders of the Jedi rebellion, who had eluded the Empire for nearly two decades. Imperial officials said Kenobi resisted and was cut down by Lord Vader's own lightsaber. He was later dumped out of an airlock.

Continues in http://www.galacticempiretimes.com/2011/05/09/galaxy/outer-rim/obi-wan-kenobi-is-killed.html

It's hilarious

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Offline Buckshee Rounds

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
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Strategically it should be a practical blow to Al-Qaeda since it's been alluded to, though unconfirmed, that old binny was an active commander. Having said that the most recent muslim extremist attacks (Mumbai 2008) were completely independent of Al-Qaeda. Osama has succeeded in permeating violent anti-West sentiments beyond the scope of his own organisation.


I wouldn't exactly consider the Mumbai raid to be something aimed at the west. To the contrary it was the inevitable result of pakistan's deliberate support for terrorism and extremism as a means to strike against india.

Aye that's my point, they were the most recent major terrorist attacks in the whole world, never mind the west and they were totally independent of Al Qaeda.

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Osama bin Laden dead at US hands
and so the fallout begins

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13385597

I posted it here due to
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The Pakistani Taliban said they carried out the attack to avenge the death of Osama Bin Laden earlier this month.

from what the article says the attack was simple but well planned.  RIP to the victims who died in the attack
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