[headdie]

Well, I hope you guys over in Great Britain resolve this in a manner that doesn't involve angry Scotsmen and Welshmen invading England to burn and pillage.

Whichever way it goes, we're in for some interesting times this Parliamentary session. I think the chances of the referendum passing are greatly increased by the current Tory government and what is sensationally being referred to as 'a return to Thatcherism' (Thatcherism was terrible for Scotland. The only good Thatcher did was her stance on the Falklands conflict, although arguably she helped create that problem)

First time I have heard it being called a return to Thatcherism, but despite the "involvement" of lib-dem government policy is very much classic conservatism, I just hope this years election gives Lib-Dem the kick they need that they need to say no a few more times, it's all fine and dandy having a good working relationship with the Conservatives but it all seems to be one way and the Libs are bleeding support because of it and the country will start suffering because of it.  The conservatives are renown for tightening spending when they can and not dishing money out when they ought to.

[Mongoose]

I think it's interesting that you guys are essentially still hashing out centuries-old conflicts, although you have to admit that it was much cooler when William Wallace was waving a claymore and shouting "FREEDOM!"  Boring old voting referendums don't have that same ring.

[Ravenholme]

Well, I hope you guys over in Great Britain resolve this in a manner that doesn't involve angry Scotsmen and Welshmen invading England to burn and pillage.

Whichever way it goes, we're in for some interesting times this Parliamentary session. I think the chances of the referendum passing are greatly increased by the current Tory government and what is sensationally being referred to as 'a return to Thatcherism' (Thatcherism was terrible for Scotland. The only good Thatcher did was her stance on the Falklands conflict, although arguably she helped create that problem)

First time I have heard it being called a return to Thatcherism, but despite the "involvement" of lib-dem government policy is very much classic conservatism, I just hope this years election gives Lib-Dem the kick they need that they need to say no a few more times, it's all fine and dandy having a good working relationship with the Conservatives but it all seems to be one way and the Libs are bleeding support because of it and the country will start suffering because of it.  The conservatives are renown for tightening spending when they can and not dishing money out when they ought to.

It's been referred to as such on this side of the border, and Nick Clegg even touted it as such in the run up to the AV vote.

[headdie]

Well, I hope you guys over in Great Britain resolve this in a manner that doesn't involve angry Scotsmen and Welshmen invading England to burn and pillage.

Whichever way it goes, we're in for some interesting times this Parliamentary session. I think the chances of the referendum passing are greatly increased by the current Tory government and what is sensationally being referred to as 'a return to Thatcherism' (Thatcherism was terrible for Scotland. The only good Thatcher did was her stance on the Falklands conflict, although arguably she helped create that problem)

First time I have heard it being called a return to Thatcherism, but despite the "involvement" of lib-dem government policy is very much classic conservatism, I just hope this years election gives Lib-Dem the kick they need that they need to say no a few more times, it's all fine and dandy having a good working relationship with the Conservatives but it all seems to be one way and the Libs are bleeding support because of it and the country will start suffering because of it.  The conservatives are renown for tightening spending when they can and not dishing money out when they ought to.

It's been referred to as such on this side of the border, and Nick Clegg even touted it as such in the run up to the AV vote.

I missed that one, but ok.  AV is a joke, tbh the only reason i can see for putting it in is because main stream politicians this side of the border are getting lazy and cant be bothered to try and engage the public beyond the 2-3 weeks in the run up to an election

[Ravenholme]

Well, I hope you guys over in Great Britain resolve this in a manner that doesn't involve angry Scotsmen and Welshmen invading England to burn and pillage.

Whichever way it goes, we're in for some interesting times this Parliamentary session. I think the chances of the referendum passing are greatly increased by the current Tory government and what is sensationally being referred to as 'a return to Thatcherism' (Thatcherism was terrible for Scotland. The only good Thatcher did was her stance on the Falklands conflict, although arguably she helped create that problem)

First time I have heard it being called a return to Thatcherism, but despite the "involvement" of lib-dem government policy is very much classic conservatism, I just hope this years election gives Lib-Dem the kick they need that they need to say no a few more times, it's all fine and dandy having a good working relationship with the Conservatives but it all seems to be one way and the Libs are bleeding support because of it and the country will start suffering because of it.  The conservatives are renown for tightening spending when they can and not dishing money out when they ought to.

It's been referred to as such on this side of the border, and Nick Clegg even touted it as such in the run up to the AV vote.

I missed that one, but ok.  AV is a joke, tbh the only reason i can see for putting it in is because main stream politicians this side of the border are getting lazy and cant be bothered to try and engage the public beyond the 2-3 weeks in the run up to an election

Aye, AV was a joke, though only good thing about it was that it represented a willingness to look at our political system. It was just the wrong way to look at it. That said, SP elections use a combination of AV and first past the post, which was supposed to prevent a majority government forming, and the SNP broke that one. (It's so bad that Political commentators and lecturers are talking about rewriting their notes of the past 6 years - they've been pointing to it as an unbreakable example)

[SpardaSon21]

I think it's interesting that you guys are essentially still hashing out centuries-old conflicts, although you have to admit that it was much cooler when William Wallace was waving a claymore and shouting "FREEDOM!"  Boring old voting referendums don't have that same ring.

This.  Ravenholme, if Scotland does end up having a referendum to secede, be sure to show up at the polls in woad and a kilt.

[karajorma]

I think the biggest mistake the Scottish make is assuming that the British government ignore Scotland.


They ignore everything north of Watford. (Or west of Reading for that matter).

[Ravenholme]

I think the biggest mistake the Scottish make is assuming that the British government ignore Scotland.


They ignore everything north of Watford. (Or west of Reading for that matter).

Haha, nicely said. 

[Mongoose]

I think it's interesting that you guys are essentially still hashing out centuries-old conflicts, although you have to admit that it was much cooler when William Wallace was waving a claymore and shouting "FREEDOM!"  Boring old voting referendums don't have that same ring.

This.  Ravenholme, if Scotland does end up having a referendum to secede, be sure to show up at the polls in woad and a kilt.

It's sort of awesome that the only reason I know what "woad" is is Age of Empires 2.

[karajorma]

Where it's lost.

Woad was well out of fashion by the time of William Wallace. You people need to stop watching Braveheart.

[Flipside]

Problem is, having spent a lot of my time in Glasgow, that the SNP actually face an uphill job, the majority of the Scottish don't actually want independance from the UK, they just want Parliament to stop thinking that, as Kara stated, the United Kingdom ended at Watford. Most Scottish people I've spoken to don't have a problem with saying they are British, regardless of what the media may have us think, but they also are Scottish and that's fine, I'm British and was born in England, it's the same thing.

That said, since Glasgow is also the only place in the world I've ever had racism directed at me, the sad fact is that a lot of people are still convinced they are re-living Braveheart, my family came from the Midlands, we got rolled over by the English King on the way up and the Scottish King on the way down, so we don't really owe either side any favours if we chose to hold grudges for hundreds of years. The problem isn't really one of sovereign rule, hasn't been for hundresd of years, the problem is how to decentralise the power system that has formed in London.

[karajorma]

I always find Scottish people who complain about the English king to be severely misguided. Robert II was the grandson of Robert the Bruce and the founder of the House of Stuart.

When James I of England came to power (causing the union of the crowns cause he was James VI of Scotland) it was the end of the Tudors and the start of the Stuart kings of England. That meant that a descendant of Robert the Bruce was now king of England. IIRC the current royal family are still to this day descended from this line. So quite frankly I can't see what they're griping about. They ****ing won! If anyone should be complaining about having someone else's royal family it's the English!

[Flipside]

It's a question of perspective and how history has been written, history implies that England won the war, even though it was effectively a no-score draw.

I think most Scottish people are aware that there would be a logistical nightmare involved with leaving the UK anyway, they'd have to re-apply to the EU as a seperate country, and whilst that was taking place, there'd be the problem of Scottish people living and working in the UK now being officially 'workers from outside the EU'. We don't really have to be 'best pals', and I don't think we ever will be, but the fact of the matter is that it is a mutually beneficial arrangement, we really just need to de-centralise Government, that is a referendum I'd be passionate about.

[IceFire]

Interesting thread! I read it and it all sounds a bit familiar... in Canada some of you may know that Quebec has had referendums on leaving the federation and becoming their own nation. It's stirred up a lot of talk in most corners of the country. If Quebec separates then what does Canada do from there and does it stay as a country the way it was.

I think the UK has considerably more history to draw on for better or worse.

The separatist party in Quebec has been virtually eliminated from federal politics in the last election (in the 90s the separatist party was popular enough to form the official opposition if you can believe that ) so a real change has happened for Canada. These things sometimes come and go. It'll be interesting to see how similar and different this ends up being for the UK.

[Iss Mneur]

Interesting thread! I read it and it all sounds a bit familiar... in Canada some of you may know that Quebec has had referendums on leaving the federation and becoming their own nation. It's stirred up a lot of talk in most corners of the country. If Quebec separates then what does Canada do from there and does it stay as a country the way it was.

A bit?  Honestly, I could swear that they were discussing Federal politics in Canada though the party names were throwing me .

I think the UK has considerably more history to draw on for better or worse.

Well, definitely they have more history to draw on, though like you I don't know if that is actually better or worse.

The separatist party in Quebec has been virtually eliminated from federal politics in the last election (in the 90s the separatist party was popular enough to form the official opposition if you can believe that ) so a real change has happened for Canada. These things sometimes come and go. It'll be interesting to see how similar and different this ends up being for the UK.

It really depends on whether the NDP can show Quebec that they are more than just a protest party.  Unfortunately it also may mean that Ottawa will go back to ignoring the west again because Ontario and Quebec by themselves are enough seats for a majority  .

[headdie]

I think the UK has considerably more history to draw on for better or worse.

Well, definitely they have more history to draw on, though like you I don't know if that is actually better or worse.

It is defiantly for the worse, it has provided masses of ammo for political mud slinging and some very entrenched mindsets

[karajorma]

But as I pointed out the use of history is rather stupid.

It's a question of perspective and how history has been written, history implies that England won the war, even though it was effectively a no-score draw.

They kinda had to write it that way or the English would have risen up against their oppressive foreign king!

[Mars]

. . . America kinda has the South. . . but that's kinda a dead horse (that won't rise again)

[Ravenholme]

But as I pointed out the use of history is rather stupid.

It's a question of perspective and how history has been written, history implies that England won the war, even though it was effectively a no-score draw.

They kinda had to write it that way or the English would have risen up against their oppressive foreign king!

Actually, maybe it's a country thing (North East Scotland represent), but we're well aware our current Monarchy is descended from a Scottish king. But being descended from a country doesn't mean you or your approved representatives care about the old home country, and the general feeling up here is that the Monarchy doesn't care about us beyond providing some nice estates (Balmoral, I'm looking at you) and the Parliament not at all.

[karajorma]

You can't exactly blame the English for the fact that the second you managed to put a Scot on the throne they ceased to give a **** about you though.

Pretty much most of the people who mention the royals as if it's even the slightest bit relevant seem to forget that.