Author Topic: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon  (Read 6236 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Which is a more inhospitable and dangerous environment?

Assume that you are equipped with all the standard gear an explorer in the environment would bring. If you are on the Moon you have an Apollo LEM, a suit, and all necessary provisions. If in the Everest death zone you have bottled oxygen and cold weather/climbing gear.

Don't be too quick to come down one on side or the other; think about the dangers involved in both! When I am not lazy/busy (probably never) I will give a bit more of a detailed description, but long story short:

On the Moon you must contend with hard vacuum, the possibility of breaching your suit, and the total impossibility of any form of rescue if something goes wrong. On the up side, you have plenty of oxygen and can think and move freely.

In the Everest Death Zone you must contend with extreme cold, unpredictable weather, the dangers of falling, and, perhaps most cripplingly, severe oxygen deprivation - leading to sometimes fatal confusion even in the most experienced climbers. Additionally, you have a small and unpredictable chance of dying at random to an embolism or brain edema. On the plus side, you may be able to survive overnight without protection even in the harshest of conditions just by sheer luck, and rescue, while remote, is not utterly impossible.

FIGHT

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Moon - for the reasons listed. All it takes is a pebble kicked up in exactly the right way, or staying a little too long. Everest, though it will kill you, is survivable for meat if only for a short while.

  

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Both are dangerous.  And they kill people.  We should bomb them both.  That'll show em.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 
Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Bombing is too good for both of them.  They should be nuked.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Well you probably need to consider to get to the moon you're on the pointy end of a government initiative, with all the strenuous selection, training and support that entails.  Any jabroni with plenty of money and little brains can attempt to scale Everest.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Mt. Everest death toll: 216.

Moon death toll: Zero.

MT. EVEREST FLAWLESS VICTORY!

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Well a lot more people have attempted Everest than attempted the Moon.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
They both have different risks and hazards, therefore it doesn't really make much sense to directly compare overall hazardousness, especially with such disparity in equipment available to our intrepid adventurers.

For example if you compare risk of dying by hypothermia, it's far more likely cause of death in Mount Everest than on the Moon.

If you compare risk of dying by suffocation (oxygen deprivation), hard vacuum is hard to beat, but you don't have a pressurized habitat in Mt. Everest - which you absolutely NEED to survive in Moon. Moon scores higher here.

Mt.Everest is protected from solar flares by Earth's magnetic field. Moon is not - although acute radiation sickness would require quite a flare.


Might be more fruitful to look at it from a more equalized perspective. If a space ship was stranded on a. Mt.Everest or b. Moon, how long would the occupants survive? Let's assume human occupants (don't want aliens to whom oxygen is poison, that'd skew the comparison unnecessarily).

In both cases ship itself remains intact in the landing but help is not going to arrive before life support goes offline.

Clock is ticking.

Which ship's life support can last longer in different environment?

Which environment provides more hospitable environment for the crew once life support ceases to function?

On Moon, the critical element is ventilation: partial pressure of CO2 needs to remain at low enough level to not become toxic, while retaining the partial pressure of O2 at high enough level to preserve blood oxygen saturation at high enough level for brain activity.

On Earth, critical element is power. The ship will lose heat much more rapidly, so the heaters will need to run at higher capacity than on Moon. It would also be beneficial to keep the ship pressurized as long as possible, but let's assume that ship has similar life support package as airliners in addition to hard vacuum seals - it can take low pressure air in from outside and use it to pressurize the inside. But, of course, this requires power.

It's hard to say which ship would lose power first, or if the ship on Moon would lose their oxygen supply and CO2 scrubbing capacity before the ship on Earth runs out of power, but regardless, the astronauts do have better chances of survival without functioning life support gear on Earth than on Moon.


So yeah, I'll say Moon is the more hazardous place as such.

There is as yet insufficient statistical data on how dangerous place a Moon is - no one has lost their life while in Moon, while a somewhat significant percentage of Mount Everest visitors has perished.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Everest is not a particularly* dangerous mountain as the eight thousand footers go, mind. K2 is much worse, Annawhatsit is worse yet.

But I disagree with your logic basically at step 1. We're comparing the danger (in terms of probability of death) of exploring these two environments in the equipment used to explore said environments. Bring in some kind of fantastical spaceship doesn't seem very useful.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
<Solus>

1921-2006, 8030 climbers, 212 deaths on the mountain.

12 people have landed on the Moon. None died on-site.

From purely statistical point of view, Moon seems to be safer, but I'm sure you'll agree that the sample size is insufficient for the hazards to fully emerge.


Too many variables to answer your question meaningfully. Attempt to reduce variables necessary.

* Herra Tohtori breathes in

Equal equipment a good way to approach situation objectively, judging hazards of each place as such. Makes no sense to directly compare mountain climbing and space travel. Same as comparing falling from fourth floor balcony with no safety equipment and falling from fifteen thousand feet with a parachute and oxygen supply.

Both can kill you, but the parachute jump hinges more heavily on functioning equipment, while surviving the fall from balcony would be more a matter of luck, and you would likely suffer serious injuries.

One could argue this is not a valid comparison but it is very close to the original question of the topic.


</Solus>
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Mount Everest.  Yetis are more dangerous than Space Yetis.

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Everest made Bear Gryllis drink his own piss.

It's on.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Everest life made Bear Gryllis drink his own piss.

It's on.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Let's look at it from another perspective, going to the moon involved a government program purpose built to get boots on the ground.  If the gov't undertook a program to scale Everest would, it be easier/safer then attempting extra vehicular moon operations?
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Let's look at it from another perspective, going to the moon involved a government program purpose built to get boots on the ground.  If the gov't undertook a program to scale Everest would, it be easier/safer then attempting extra vehicular moon operations?

A government program that scale could probably pave the **** out of Everest.

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Demand UN sanctions on Everest.  Tell it to knock that **** off.

If it doesn't comply (and I know monstrous geofascists like Everest and their K2 allies never do), we liberate the entire mountain range from their tyranny.

Everesto delenda est
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Destiny

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
On Earth, critical element is power. The ship will lose heat much more rapidly, so the heaters will need to run at higher capacity than on Moon. It would also be beneficial to keep the ship pressurized as long as possible, but let's assume that ship has similar life support package as airliners in addition to hard vacuum seals - it can take low pressure air in from outside and use it to pressurize the inside. But, of course, this requires power.
Uhh...how do you lose heat in space besides infrared radiation? Astronauts are having problem keeping themselves COOL in space.


Long story: Space might be cold, but convection and conduction don't work when you have no air.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
On Earth, critical element is power. The ship will lose heat much more rapidly, so the heaters will need to run at higher capacity than on Moon. It would also be beneficial to keep the ship pressurized as long as possible, but let's assume that ship has similar life support package as airliners in addition to hard vacuum seals - it can take low pressure air in from outside and use it to pressurize the inside. But, of course, this requires power.
Uhh...how do you lose heat in space besides infrared radiation? Astronauts are having problem keeping themselves COOL in space.

Long story: Space might be cold, but convection and conduction don't work when you have no air.

I feel like you should reread the first sentence of what you quoted.

 

Offline watsisname

Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Demand UN sanctions on Everest.  Tell it to knock that **** off.

If it doesn't comply (and I know monstrous geofascists like Everest and their K2 allies never do), we liberate the entire mountain range from their tyranny.

Everesto delenda est

In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 
Re: Mount Everest Death Zone vs. The Surface Of The Moon
Well a lot more people have attempted Everest than attempted the Moon.

Challenge Accepted. I shall pave the way for Extreme Moon Survival tourism.