[Scotty]

But there's a difference between blowing up an easily-replacable space station, and carpet-bombing population centers.

The GTVA did exactly that to Luna.

No, that would be civilian targets getting caught in the crossfire when important military targets are located within population centers.  Much like Hiroshima, which was a military supply depot with a garrison of several thousand troops when it was bombed.

Unlike Communism, Ubuntu works. Ubuntu citizens are more healthy, happier, and more prosperous than GTVA citizens. In terms of cold, hard, economic facts, Ubuntu ensures a higher standard of living than the GTVA. You cannot propaganda that away, especially if you have no real way of controlling the population (remember, the population of Sol is equal to the population of the entire terran half of the GTVA). Propaganda simply doesn't work when the thing you're using propaganda agianst has been proven to work for decades.

Not necessarily true. The United States of America has objectively a lower life expectancy then most Western European democracies, while at the same time having astronomically higher per-capita healthcare costs. It’s a fact. It’s indisputable. And yet clever propaganda on the part of those with a vested interest in maintaining the current system turned popular opinion against the American people’s own self-interest and undermined last year’s reform efforts. The result was an unambitious bill that lacked the defining characteristics of the objectively superior European healthcare systems.

I probably just doomed the thread to derailment with that, but what the hell.

However, it's true that even the best propaganda won't fool everybody. The question is whether it fools enough people.

Not touching this with a 20 foot pole, but I will say that, due to the complete lack of people coming through the node that can spread any news of how well Ubuntu works, it'd be much easier to produce propaganda saying the UEF is a pathetic bunch of baby-eaters and that the rest of the population is better off where they are.  I realize earlier that I said there's no way to stop the information from getting through, but that's assuming the GTVA lets people leave, which they don't necessarily have to do.

I stand by my initial point. Whoever wins this conflict will have to adopt so many characteristics of the other side that what comes out in the end will be a completely different entity.

If the GTVA wins militarily, there’s a decent chance that will happen, and it’s probably the optimal outcome. That said, a large part of the GTVA’s motivation for war was to prevent the spread of Ubuntu, and having conquered Sol they’re probably not going to adopt key elements of Ubuntu without a fight (whether successful or not). The UEF has, as far as I can tell, neither the means nor the desire to take control of GTVA space; their victory condition is kicking the GTVA out of Sol and locking down the node, so they needn’t worry about adapting the GTVA’s philosophies in order to effectively govern new territory. Still, the increase in militarism required to kick the GTVA out would likely leave its marks.

I think the better name for this thread would be "Is there any way for the UEF to win?".  Militarizing to throw the GTVA out of the system is counter to (if not real) perceived Ubuntu philosphy, not to mention next to impossible militarily.  Even if they push the GTVA out of the system, it's also next to impossible to keep them out.  Not fighting results in GTVA domination of the Sol system.  Keeping the war at its present intensity is not an option due to continuing loss of life, erosion of public support on the GTVA side, and erosion of war materiel on the UEF side.

There seems to be some big assumptions here, that somehow the population of the GTVA is a powder keg, ready to rebel at the drop of a hat. How many policies have you disagreed with from your own governments? Consider the Iraq war, for example - millions of people in the US, UK and Australia were against it. Zero rebellions.

Unless there's something in the BP fluff that mentions something about the GTVA being primed to rebel (which is pretty stupid anyway, given the constant Shivan threat hanging over their heads), then I don't think it's reasonable to just jump to rebellion, except maybe at the ballot box.

As far as the trigger-happiness of the GTVA population when it comes to rebellion is concerned, I’m going off what General Battuta said in the post I quoted up top (Battuta: if I’m twisting your words or taking them out of context, please correct me). If they’re willing to rebel over the GTVA not building the gate or not letting them move to the UEF, they’re willing to rebel over a lot of things.

On the matter of the UK, USA, and Australia’s situation vs. that of the GTVA? I think almost all Brits, Americans, and Australians, whether they agree with the war or not, would agree in a heartbeat that they would rather be living in the UK, the USA, or Australia than in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. Not necessarily true in the case of the GTVA vs. the UEF. As you said, zero rebellions in the case of those three modern countries. The GTVA has experienced the defection of thousands of personnel, three capital ships, at least one fighter wing, and one of its most decorated flag officers. On top of that, the GTVA's confidence in the loyalty of the officers and crew of one of its most modern and powerful battlegroups is shaken enough that the Security Council elected to keep them as far from the war as possible.

And we’re not really talking about a rebellion in support of the UEF, either. A closer real-world analogy would be the Russian Empire during the Russo-Japanese War and World War I. The Russo-Japanese War was started at least in part as a means of unifying Russia behind a common cause, and backfired terribly when the Russians got their rears handed to them and made the Tsar and his officers look like idiots. A few years later, it wasn’t any measure of sympathy for Russia’s European enemies, but frustration at the government’s mishandling of World War I, that was the last straw in spurring the people to revolution.

Staying away from current politics again, while GB may be a respected member of the community, and a member of the BP team, he is not the Word of God.  If the GTVA population is so ready to rebel, then some issue or other, even one unrelated to the war, can spark it off, and it becomes a non-issue to the discussion.  If this situation with the portal and only the situation with the portal is what may spark a rebellion, it speaks to more of an issue with perceived effectiveness of government than it does to a general readiness to rebel.  With that in mind, a victory in Sol, following which the GTVA does not allow full immigration, may still avoid a rebellion, if only because the government is now Getting Stuff Done.  Of course, the war must end relatively quickly for that to be of any help at all, or the population may rebel in protest.

Personally, I think the population of the GTVA isn't so ripe for revolt.  Under certain extenuating circumstances, such as failure of the Sol campaign, perhaps.  Following a victory, I highly doubt it.

[LordPomposity]

Fair enough, the nuking of Luna wasn't for the lulz. But it does signal a pronounced shift away from the GTVA's theorized goal of taking Sol intact to grab its economic power, and heralds a growing sense of urgency that the GTVA needs to win at any cost before they manage to really embarrass themselves. This war was supposed to last a matter of days, remember.

Not touching this with a 20 foot pole, but I will say that, due to the complete lack of people coming through the node that can spread any news of how well Ubuntu works, it'd be much easier to produce propaganda saying the UEF is a pathetic bunch of baby-eaters and that the rest of the population is better off where they are.  I realize earlier that I said there's no way to stop the information from getting through, but that's assuming the GTVA lets people leave, which they don't necessarily have to do.

You're a much wiser man than I, then. And agreed.

I think the better name for this thread would be "Is there any way for the UEF to win?".  Militarizing to throw the GTVA out of the system is counter to (if not real) perceived Ubuntu philosphy, not to mention next to impossible militarily.  Even if they push the GTVA out of the system, it's also next to impossible to keep them out.  Not fighting results in GTVA domination of the Sol system.  Keeping the war at its present intensity is not an option due to continuing loss of life, erosion of public support on the GTVA side, and erosion of war materiel on the UEF side.

Oh, I'm taking it pretty much for granted that the UEF is well and truly screwed. On top of what you said, once the dust settles, even if they somehow scrape out a victory (which is practically a military impossibility based on what we know now), I'd wager that a lot of people are going to be seriously unhappy with how the Elders handled things.

Of course, if Byrne pulls out something brilliant, with the backing of the Elders, this problem goes away.

Staying away from current politics again, while GB may be a respected member of the community, and a member of the BP team, he is not the Word of God.  If the GTVA population is so ready to rebel, then some issue or other, even one unrelated to the war, can spark it off, and it becomes a non-issue to the discussion.  If this situation with the portal and only the situation with the portal is what may spark a rebellion, it speaks to more of an issue with perceived effectiveness of government than it does to a general readiness to rebel.  With that in mind, a victory in Sol, following which the GTVA does not allow full immigration, may still avoid a rebellion, if only because the government is now Getting Stuff Done.  Of course, the war must end relatively quickly for that to be of any help at all, or the population may rebel in protest.

Personally, I think the population of the GTVA isn't so ripe for revolt.  Under certain extenuating circumstances, such as failure of the Sol campaign, perhaps.  Following a victory, I highly doubt it.

Okay, I'll buy that. I also find such an extreme readiness to rebel rather implausible, to tell the truth, but if we remove it then we've suddenly brought back into the picture a number of very valid alternatives to war. Making the GTVA fools, villains, or both.

The fact that it's taken the GTVA as long as it already has to make headway against a vastly inferior foe, on top of the flurry of defections from the 14th, is probably making them look pretty weak already. The Battle of Saturn was probably something of a propaganda victory, but even with the destruction of a rather infamous UEF unit, the Carthage is badly damaged and many of her escorts were destroyed. It feels like a defeat from the perspective of the player because we lose a lot of characters we've come to know and like, but seen from the other side the Imperieuse arrives to bail Lopez's ass out of the fire with about thirty seconds to spare, and not before several thousand GTVA officers and crew have died. In an asymmetric war-of-choice like this one, any military victory short of an overwhelming one can look bad.

Yeah, I was too pessimistic in my earlier assessment of the GTVA's chances (i.e. that they're completely screwed). But I do maintain they've still got pretty much all the problems they had before they started the war (whether those problems are large or not), plus the not-so-minor problem of a war that has gotten a lot bloodier than they counted on.

[Deadly in a Shadow]

My opinion: The GTVA is able to win the war, but not the outcomes.

[Scotty]

Staying away from current politics again, while GB may be a respected member of the community, and a member of the BP team, he is not the Word of God.  If the GTVA population is so ready to rebel, then some issue or other, even one unrelated to the war, can spark it off, and it becomes a non-issue to the discussion.  If this situation with the portal and only the situation with the portal is what may spark a rebellion, it speaks to more of an issue with perceived effectiveness of government than it does to a general readiness to rebel.  With that in mind, a victory in Sol, following which the GTVA does not allow full immigration, may still avoid a rebellion, if only because the government is now Getting Stuff Done.  Of course, the war must end relatively quickly for that to be of any help at all, or the population may rebel in protest.

Personally, I think the population of the GTVA isn't so ripe for revolt.  Under certain extenuating circumstances, such as failure of the Sol campaign, perhaps.  Following a victory, I highly doubt it.

Okay, I'll buy that. I also find such an extreme readiness to rebel rather implausible, to tell the truth, but if we remove it then we've suddenly brought back into the picture a number of very valid alternatives to war. Making the GTVA fools, villains, or both.

The fact that it's taken the GTVA as long as it already has to make headway against a vastly inferior foe, on top of the flurry of defections from the 14th, is probably making them look pretty weak already. The Battle of Saturn was probably something of a propaganda victory, but even with the destruction of a rather infamous UEF unit, the Carthage is badly damaged and many of her escorts were destroyed. It feels like a defeat from the perspective of the player because we lose a lot of characters we've come to know and like, but seen from the other side the Imperieuse arrives to bail Lopez's ass out of the fire with about thirty seconds to spare, and not before several thousand GTVA officers and crew have died. In an asymmetric war-of-choice like this one, any military victory short of an overwhelming one can look bad.

Yeah, I was too pessimistic in my earlier assessment of the GTVA's chances (i.e. that they're completely screwed). But I do maintain they've still got pretty much all the problems they had before they started the war (whether those problems are large or not), plus the not-so-minor problem of a war that has gotten a lot bloodier than they counted on.

To be objective, The GTVA made slow headway in the early stages of the war (meaning, everything up to the beginning of WiH) because 1) the UEF had a lot of infrastructure that makes suprise attacks an impossibility, 2) that infrastructure had to be removed from the equation somehow, 3) there were more than a few militia units not affilitated with a specific fleet that had to be taken care of, and finally 4) they really did underestimate both UEF resolve and willingness to fight.

Much of the buildup to WiH consists of Admiral Severanti using numerical superiority, ease of restock/resupply due to the short distance to the gate, and as much time as he damned well pleased to remove those infrastructure assets and militia units from the equation, and also to put pressure on Jupiter and 3rd Fleet by hitting convoys.

Numerous discussions on both the IRC channel and the board here have mostly come to the consensus (along with help from the BP members ) that, while the GTVA could have ended the war quickly, it would have been horrific.  Steele's opportunities to hurt the UEF so quickly at so little cost have only come around because of Severanti's low-intensity war-fighting for the 18 months leading up to Artemis Station.  That is not to say that the 3rd Fleet repelled repeated heavy assaults from the best the GTVA had to offer for months on end (but it doesn't make them any less awesome anyway).

I like these threads.

[Nohiki]

And what if the shivans appear and both sides unite just like terrans and vasudans did in 2335 :@ Seriously people, you are are all pessimists

[Destiny]

The Shivans will straight away charge to Sol so it can blow up Earth, because their grudge for Sol wasn't fulfilled in 2335!

[The E]

Not necessarily true. The United States of America has objectively a lower life expectancy then most Western European democracies, while at the same time having astronomically higher per-capita healthcare costs. It’s a fact. It’s indisputable. And yet clever propaganda on the part of those with a vested interest in maintaining the current system turned popular opinion against the American people’s own self-interest and undermined last year’s reform efforts. The result was an unambitious bill that lacked the defining characteristics of the objectively superior European healthcare systems.

I probably just doomed the thread to derailment with that, but what the hell.

However, it's true that even the best propaganda won't fool everybody. The question is whether it fools enough people.

I think you may have missed something here. The GTVA/UEF war would analogous to the US trying to conquer Europe, and then trying to impose US policies and politics on Europe. Now, granted, the GTVA does have an easier time controlling the information flow (since everything is bottlenecked by the node), but they cannot declare Earth off-limits to their civilians. People will want to visit Earth, and while there, will talk to Ubuntu citizens. Information will flow out of the Sol system, and there's nothing the GTVA can do to stop it, not without risking further destabilization of an already unstable domestic situation.

The fact that it's taken the GTVA as long as it already has to make headway against a vastly inferior foe, on top of the flurry of defections from the 14th, is probably making them look pretty weak already. The Battle of Saturn was probably something of a propaganda victory, but even with the destruction of a rather infamous UEF unit, the Carthage is badly damaged and many of her escorts were destroyed. It feels like a defeat from the perspective of the player because we lose a lot of characters we've come to know and like, but seen from the other side the Imperieuse arrives to bail Lopez's ass out of the fire with about thirty seconds to spare, and not before several thousand GTVA officers and crew have died. In an asymmetric war-of-choice like this one, any military victory short of an overwhelming one can look bad.

Why does this always come up.....

The UEF is anything BUT a "vastly inferior foe". The UEF fleet is, in terms of firepower, roughly equivalent to 4 or 5 GTVA battlegroups. Prior to Steele's arrival and the battle of Artemis Station, the GTVA was fighting against an enemy that was always one step ahead due to the subspace sensor net enveloping Sol, thus negating one of the biggest factors in FS warfare. Yes, the UEF navy was hampered by Byrne's indecision and by not having as deep a personnel pool as the GTVA, but still, it is definitely not a foe to be underestimated.

[SypheDMar]

I think he means that the GTVA is telling its civilians that the UEF is inferior as opposed to them actually being inferior. The Tev higher-ups wouldn't willingly commit political suicide by saying that they're fighting an equally-good-if-not-better adversary and that the war may last much longer than anticipated.

[Deadly in a Shadow]

And now, after the failed Delenda Est? I wonder how long the 2. and the pitiful rest of the 3. fleet can stand against a bloodhound like Steele. And the morale isn't high ground, even now Byrne holds his fleet back and they have lost one of their best, if not the best, task force. Four frigates, two cruisers, one AWACS and all those fighters as casualities, what a deep strike.

[crizza]

And now, the Fedayeen enter the fray, we will see how this turns out.

[MatthTheGeek]

There seems to be some big assumptions here, that somehow the population of the GTVA is a powder keg, ready to rebel at the drop of a hat. How many policies have you disagreed with from your own governments? Consider the Iraq war, for example - millions of people in the US, UK and Australia were against it. Zero rebellions.

Unless there's something in the BP fluff that mentions something about the GTVA being primed to rebel (which is pretty stupid anyway, given the constant Shivan threat hanging over their heads), then I don't think it's reasonable to just jump to rebellion, except maybe at the ballot box.

Well, lets be honest. The GTVA has been in power for like, what, 40 years ? It's pretty much a military dictature, with a few relents of democracy for caring about civilian matters. They have based their politics on building a huge fleet to stop the next Shivan advance. Shivans arrive, GTVA get their ass kicked, they lose Capella, they have millions of refugees on their hands. I can about see why people are on the verge of rebellion at that stade.

Now add to the equation 18 years of straining the Terran economy to its limits to build the Sol gate, just next to an economically prosperous Zod empire, and just to be immediately denied immigration after the gate is complete because of a new war. And a war against fellow Terrans, to boot. The tevs have pretty much an economical crisis in their hands, they can't really convince the populace that they'll protect them against a Shivan invasion anymore, they're denying them Sol while it has been their only way to keep the population under control those past 18 years, and they're waging a new war, straining the economy even more, and causing the destruction of families because father X died against the UEF and stuff.

I think we have here more than what's required to have a pretty nice powder keg.

Hm...Sol is something like the promised land, I get that...
but this reminds me of east and west Germany...
UEF people will move out, no matter who wins, to secure their fortunes while those living in GTVA systems just want to see earth...
Another point is the thing, that the Ubuntu philosophie undermines the GTVA...they held of the GTVA for around 18 month...
And even the council of elder must admit, that the shivans will return one day...
My scenario?
There must be a diplomatic solution, like Ubuntu being something like a...civil system and the GTVA like some sort of...well...Nato.

That's what the Elders and Byrne have been trying to do for the past 18 months : finding a diplomatic solution. The Elders would have been pretty good at that, if the Tevs had been willing to accept anything else than a nearly unconditional surrender. Thing is, the Tevs have pretty much closed diplomatic negotiations before they really started.

[-Sara-]

The way I see it the GTVA-UEF terran civil war can end only in the following ways.

1. The GTVA manages to win the war through attrition, exhausting both UEF resources (be it material or personel) and Sol's morale. Citizens grow tired of the fighting and cling to their spirituality rather than the Ubuntu council and support for the UEF leadership starts to fade. Sooner or later a Guy Fawkes may try to blow up the council to force a political change.

2. The GTVA manages to win through overwhelming force, probably through assistance from the Vasudans (two Hatshepsut's and a Typhon can turn the tables fast). The UEF knows it cannot win and may either choose to surrender it's forces to the GTVA, commence the order to scuttle all UEF assets to prevent the GTVA from using their ships or otherwise engage into a military exodus (hiding ships far away in the kuiper belt or oort cloud) with the intention of colsolidating their forces to mount a counter-offensive. Most likely however, UEF ships and personel would join the GTVA ranks with the decision of having an as large as possible force to face off against the Shivans with.

3. The UEF wins the war by convincing the Vasudans to put presure on the Terrans in the GTVA, through evidence of atrocity or evidence that the GTVA terrans with additional UEF forces added to their ranks can become a force which is superior in size and power to the Vasudans.

4. The UEF wins through several tactical victories and the GTVA's losses are mounting up too high (imagine losing a destroyer or two). Peace negotions would follow.

5. The UEF wins through getting information of the GTVA attrocities out to the GTVA citizens, while such a 'wikileaking' attempt may at first be contained repeated attempts may cause uproar, forcing the GTVA to submit the admirality and security council to serious change (possibly working out a more peaceful solution). Vasudans will also likely intervene (see point 3.)

6. The UEF manages to sabotage/destroye the DeltaSerpentis-Sol portal and subsequently collapses the jumpnode again through the use of large explosives (or detonating a Solaris-class inside the node). The GTVA could not build another portal without atleast cooperation of the Vasudans this time who, if they agree to help, would surely demand a different approach towards the UEF.

7. The Vasudans go through a political change and may find that their participation in the GTVA is no longer the preferable option, presuring the Terrans to cease the war and start negotions with the UEF or other facing the threat of the Vasudans supporting the UEF. This change may either be initiated by Khonsu II who seems to take awareness of the grand events which will yet have to unfold, or he may find himself replaced (although I find this unlikely given that Khonsu II seems to openly converse and communicate with all factions of the Vasudans, both religious and non-religious). Cause for such a change can be that they expect a shivan invasion to be imminent and fear that without immediate peace, the GTVA and UEF are at risk of being destroyed.

8. Outside intervention occurs through Shivan, Vishan or maybe even Brahma intervention. With neither the GT(V)A and the UEF wanting a two-front war if invasion does occur, an unease alliance of convenience is likely formed much like 50 years ago.

[NGTM-1R]

It's pretty much a military dictature, with a few relents of democracy for caring about civilian matters.

You are literally making this up. Simply because the game deals with the military aspects and so that's all we see does not mean the GTVA is a military dictatorship.

You have utterly failed to appreciate the fact that the games do not provide an omniscient viewpoint.

[The E]

Indeed. The GTVA, in our estimation, isn't a military dictatorship. It is similar to the EU in concept, as in, a singular government body charged with maintaining an alliance of the various colonies, ensuring common standards and, crucially, a common defense.

[Scotty]

Indeed. The GTVA, in our estimation, isn't a military dictatorship. It is similar to the EU in concept, as in, a singular government body charged with maintaining an alliance of the various colonies, ensuring common standards and, crucially, a common defense.

Indeed.  And this, at its heart, is why the concept of a police state or ANY resemblance thereof is enormously unlikely.

[MatthTheGeek]

Really ? I was pretty sure I read that somewhere...

Anyway, the rest of the post still stands.

[Snail]

The original GTA (not the Terran GTVA) felt closer to a military dictatorship. Then again the FSRefBible states that it had little domestic influence and was focused on space exploration.

[Luis Dias]

Except the situation is a tiny bit different.
Unlike Communism, Ubuntu works. Ubuntu citizens are more healthy, happier, and more prosperous than GTVA citizens. In terms of cold, hard, economic facts, Ubuntu ensures a higher standard of living than the GTVA. You cannot propaganda that away, especially if you have no real way of controlling the population (remember, the population of Sol is equal to the population of the entire terran half of the GTVA). Propaganda simply doesn't work when the thing you're using propaganda agianst has been proven to work for decades.

Ok, this is utterly bollocks. If you want to say that it isn't "the same thing" coz Russia had it worse than america, then fine, trade places. How come the Russkies had to endure communism for so long when it was so goddamned clear that capitalism was so much better?

How come did Russia manage to avoid mass migration and rebellion for so many decades?

Your idea is simply not true. At all.

In addition, the GTVA wants Sol for its economic strength. That strength comes from the policies set by the Ubuntu Council of Elders. In other words, you can't get the economy without at least acknowledging the ideology that makes it work so well.

Unless you don't really buy the idea that the economic boom had anything to do with Ubuntu, but external factors. You are making too many assumptions here.

I stand by my initial point. Whoever wins this conflict will have to adopt so many characteristics of the other side that what comes out in the end will be a completely different entity.

But this is different from the OP, which is about how the GTVA "loses" either way.

[The E]

In addition, the GTVA wants Sol for its economic strength. That strength comes from the policies set by the Ubuntu Council of Elders. In other words, you can't get the economy without at least acknowledging the ideology that makes it work so well.

Unless you don't really buy the idea that the economic boom had anything to do with Ubuntu, but external factors. You are making too many assumptions here.

Right. Please read the supplementary materials for BP. I would recommend the "What is Ubuntu?" dossier. The economic strength of Sol is because, not in spite of, the leadership of the Council of Elders. If you want to argue stuff in the BP verse, you should stick to BP canon.

Ok, this is utterly bollocks. If you want to say that it isn't "the same thing" coz Russia had it worse than america, then fine, trade places. How come the Russkies had to endure communism for so long when it was so goddamned clear that capitalism was so much better?

How come did Russia manage to avoid mass migration and rebellion for so many decades?

Your idea is simply not true. At all.

And you are too hung up on the wrong RL analogies. The cold war situation between Russia and the US is not a good analogy for the difference between the UEF and the GTVA. The two systems are much closer, for starters. But where the GTVA is mostly hands-off, and doesn't involve itself in the day-to-day operation of the colonies except in areas of common interest and defense (obviously), the UEF favours a more intrusive approach to governing. If you really want to draw an analogy, US vs EU is the one you should use, not US vs USSR.

[LordPomposity]

And what if the shivans appear and both sides unite just like terrans and vasudans did in 2335 :@ Seriously people, you are are all pessimists

Don't have time to respond to everything right now (and doubt I will, but great discussion, folks), but it speaks volumes about the current situation that a Shivan incursion can be considered an optimistic outcome.

EDIT:

I think he means that the GTVA is telling its civilians that the UEF is inferior as opposed to them actually being inferior. The Tev higher-ups wouldn't willingly commit political suicide by saying that they're fighting an equally-good-if-not-better adversary and that the war may last much longer than anticipated.

This is part of it. The other part is that while the UEF fleet is equal to 5 GTVA battlegroups, the GTVA has a lot more than 5 battlegroups. Yes, they have two exceedingly valid reasons for not committing everything they have (the big one starts with an Sh and rhymes with Shivans; perhaps more importantly, they also really can't afford to shirk on their treaty obligations and thereby piss of the Vasudans any more than they already have). However, in the 18 years since Capella, an entire generation has come of age with no memory of the Shivans. The more reactionary elements of this generation, as the war passes the year-and-a-half mark and becomes increasingly costly, may well be asking why the Terran half of the security council is more concerned with appeasing the Zods than it is with attending to a very pressing Terran problem...sound familiar?