[Unknown Target]

Haha well let's look at the whole world. Perhaps the similarities between Greece and the US? Right now one of our major problems is rampant greed, private manipulation of public government for private desires, overregulation and overillegalization, a moneyless public government and corporations that are very large and have a lot of unchecked power.

[peterv]

All these, i agree. But all they really have as a weapon is propaganda, nothing else. The real power is still in the hands of the people, at least in democratic countries. So what do we do? What you said before, communicate. That's what we did here at least, and the result is to make the whole (corrupted IMO) European leadership to start having second thoughts.

[Unknown Target]

What is this "Memorandum" exactly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48bR2-Kz-Dc&feature=player_embedded#at=181

What does it entail?

[Unknown Target]

*Bump* What happened with that referendum? Things seem to have quieted down. What's up?

[Mika]

Speaking from the Northern European side, quite a lot people are starting to get fed up with these aid money packages to Greece since we would need the money ourselves now, and we need to get loans to pay the commission stipulated amount. None of us believe this money will effect anyhow what's wrong in Greece, and the common feeling in the Middle Finland is that let the whole thing crash while it's still recoverable elsewhere in the EU. The worst of it? The fact that it's not Finnish investors that have ****ed up, it's UK, French and German investors (banks) whose losses we are actually paying. UK has invested thousand times more in Greece, while they virtually pay nothing, the same with Sweden, who has invested more there, but doesn't belong to EMU and they don't have to pay support money. This is simply not seen as fair, and that's pretty big deal with Finns. Next referendum might be rather interesting around here...

Add on top of that, we are getting angry about the Greeks that are rioting and do not accept the changes necessary to improve the situation. The thing is that general population halfway expected this would happen when Finland joined in EMU back then. It was indeed said that do we really want to go in to the same boat with Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian given their historic record of controlling their economy and overall culture with respect to it? But since this is a democratic country and general population voted for EMU, here we go...

And like that wouldn't be the worst of it, Greece isn't even an isolated case, Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal are soon to follow. After they have gone broke, it's probably this place, and for backing them up.

[StarSlayer]

Perhaps you can repo the Acropolis and sell it to China to cover the debt?

[Unknown Target]

This seems to be an interesting quote:

"But many Greeks insist they should not be forced to pay for a crisis they believe the politicians are responsible for.
"We don't owe any money, it's the others who stole it," said 69-year-old demonstrator Antonis Vrahas. "We're resisting for a better society for the sake of our children and grandchildren.""

http://news.yahoo.com/protesters-clash-riot-police-athens-strike-115524385.html

[redsniper]

Well, it seems like whenever Americans try to use that reasoning, everyone else just says "Yeah well you voted for your politicians, so too bad, you're responsible." I mean Greece is still a democracy, right?

[Unknown Target]

Not just Americans say that about the situation too.

But really, is the population to be held responsible for the poor decisions of just a few people out of many?

Isn't that just a visible symptom of larger problems, instead of a damnation of an entire people because a few people got stupid/greedy/careless when in control of vast resources.

To me that says that Greece, and by extrusion much of the world; has a power issue.

[Mongoose]

From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy.  I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.

[StarSlayer]

  I suggest at the very least you read this article that was discussed on our very own HLP back in September before you get on your Illuminati/bourgeois rant, it points to the current economic situation in Greece being systemic of problems at all levels of Greek society.  The current Greek government inherited this clusterfrak and they are going to have to make some hard decisions and cuts if they're going to return to any semblance of economic stability.  This situation is a lot more complex than being able to just slapping some proletariat utopia line and hope it wills away hard economic reality. 

[Unknown Target]

From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy.  I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.

If the people don't want to pay taxes, then why try to follow a system that requires it? Make taxes optional?

[Scotty]

From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy.  I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.

If the people don't want to pay taxes, then why try to follow a system that requires it? Make taxes optional?

Wut.

People never want to pay taxes.  It's a necessary, well, tax for living in a society that doesn't fall apart on itself.

Seriously.  Stupid question.

[StarSlayer]

You've gotta be trolling, there is no way you can't understand the very basics of how civilization or a society works.  You couldn't have made it this far through the education system without at least some knowledge in economics, history, government or western civ being imparted. 

I mean hell, how do you expect to change the world if you display a complete ignorance of the very fundamentals its built on?

[redsniper]

Hmmm, I think my previous post may have been interpreted backwards. I don't mean to say "**** Greece, they elected their leaders so they're responsible for the mess." I mean something more like, "Just as Greece can be betrayed by its elected leaders, so can the US or just about any other country." So yeah, it's totally possible to make what you think is the best decision in an election, given the information you have on hand, etc etc. and still get screwed over, because politicians are all liars and scumbags.

**** politics.

[peterv]

Speaking from the Northern European side, quite a lot people are starting to get fed up with these aid money packages to Greece since we would need the money ourselves now, and we need to get loans to pay the commission stipulated amount. None of us believe this money will effect anyhow what's wrong in Greece, and the common feeling in the Middle Finland is that let the whole thing crash while it's still recoverable elsewhere in the EU. The worst of it? The fact that it's not Finnish investors that have ****ed up, it's UK, French and German investors (banks) whose losses we are actually paying. UK has invested thousand times more in Greece, while they virtually pay nothing, the same with Sweden, who has invested more there, but doesn't belong to EMU and they don't have to pay support money. This is simply not seen as fair, and that's pretty big deal with Finns. Next referendum might be rather interesting around here...

Add on top of that, we are getting angry about the Greeks that are rioting and do not accept the changes necessary to improve the situation. The thing is that general population halfway expected this would happen when Finland joined in EMU back then. It was indeed said that do we really want to go in to the same boat with Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian given their historic record of controlling their economy and overall culture with respect to it? But since this is a democratic country and general population voted for EMU, here we go...

And like that wouldn't be the worst of it, Greece isn't even an isolated case, Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal are soon to follow. After they have gone broke, it's probably this place, and for backing them up.

Dear Mika, you need to understand this: We Greeks DON'T WANT your money.
Also, i don't know what's happening in Northern European side, but in Greece there is no democracy since the acceptance of your money from our government.

[peterv]

What is this "Memorandum" exactly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48bR2-Kz-Dc&feature=player_embedded#at=181

What does it entail?

It's the "low" that allows the Greek debts to banks to become mortaged debts to EU and IMF.

From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy.  I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.

It's true. There is a reason for this though: For the last 30 years there are several cases where the government erased huge debts owned from companies and banks. Same thing happened with fines owned to the state (Vodafone's fine of 76million euros was erased for example). Also, the tax lows are not exactly... democratic 
People feel that it's not fair to pay  taxes. Personally i disagree, but i understand it.

Perhaps you can repo the Acropolis and sell it to China to cover the debt?

Along with some islnands perhaps? Germans would be very happy according to their mass-media. On the other hand, a war against us might be more profitable.

[The E]

Well, no, a war against Greece would not solve anything really. Neither would selling off islands (no matter what the asstards that run the german mass media say. **** Bild.). I do not know what will, apart from overthrowing the greek government and declaring the new government to not be a successor to the old one.

[Unknown Target]

From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy.  I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.

If the people don't want to pay taxes, then why try to follow a system that requires it? Make taxes optional?

Wut.

People never want to pay taxes.  It's a necessary, well, tax for living in a society that doesn't fall apart on itself.

Seriously.  Stupid question.

Well I'm just saying; if people don't want to pay taxes, then obviously they don't want to have the services that taxes provide. Make taxes a direct payment thing, per tax, and then if people don't want to pay taxes for something then they won't get it.
The lack of basic services like city water and electricity would encourage most people to pay a water and electricity tax.

Well, no, a war against Greece would not solve anything really. Neither would selling off islands (no matter what the asstards that run the german mass media say. **** Bild.). I do not know what will, apart from overthrowing the greek government and declaring the new government to not be a successor to the old one.

Careful there, that's revolutionary talk; that would be real change, and that would be "bad" 

[StarSlayer]

From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy.  I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.

If the people don't want to pay taxes, then why try to follow a system that requires it? Make taxes optional?

Wut.

People never want to pay taxes.  It's a necessary, well, tax for living in a society that doesn't fall apart on itself.

Seriously.  Stupid question.

Well I'm just saying; if people don't want to pay taxes, then obviously they don't want to have the services that taxes provide. Make taxes a direct payment thing, per tax, and then if people don't want to pay taxes for something then they won't get it.
The lack of basic services like city water and electricity would encourage most people to pay a water and electricity tax.

How do you maintain electric/gas/water/road infrastructure if not enough people are paying for it?  How do you staff and equip police and fire departments?  How do you apply those services such as fire and police on a per paid basis?  How do you consistently post complete bullocks ideas that are completely disconnected from reality?