[Kosh]

The Euro Crisis is the biggest short term threat to the global economy, with Greece being the first domino to fall and Portugal, Italy, Spain and Ireland lined up behind it. However I don't think it will lead to a break up of the Euro, too many nations have put too much into it for that to happen and it would crash their economies. How it will get through this isn't entirely clear, but we'll know for sure in 5 years time.


Long term the big concern is the US and China, although for different reasons. The US has been able to get away with it's 30 year spending spree and twin deficeits for so long because of the dollar's reserve status, but currently this is being eroded and if it actually loses its status as the reserve currency this will have severe consequences for the people. The Eurozone is just the first to feel the pain.

The lack of basic services like city water and electricity would encourage most people to pay a water and electricity tax.

You do pay a water and electricity tax, that's called your utilities bill.

[Unknown Target]

@StarSlayer

They're just ideas. Just because they would be hard or impossible to make work at the moment doesn't mean they shouldn't be talked about. Do you think we would have come up with things like the US Constitution, language, etc, if we only talked about what was expressly possible at the moment?

I swear, you get so worked up over it, it's just an idea. Why don't you try answering those questions yourself and maybe see where I'm coming from? I'm not saying it's a flawless proposal, it's just a proposal.

Anyway, to answer some of your questions, like fire departments and police departments - you could rely more on community training and democratize the skills; pay a large number of the populace to go through the training, and pay a small subset of the populace a retainer for them to keep practicing their skills.

If more people knew how to take care of problems like fires, or how to negotiate with people or avoid dangerous situations that would require police protection, then there would be less of a need to maintain an (expensive) force specifically for dealing with those problems. In fact, if more people knew at least basic knowledge, they would be able to form local groups to deal with issues.

It's the same principle as, say, in Israel or Finland, where everyone goes through military training, so everyone at least has basic survival skills, and knows how to work in a team to solve a problem.

The lack of basic services like city water and electricity would encourage most people to pay a water and electricity tax.

You do pay a water and electricity tax, that's called your utilities bill.

I know, I was saying if taxes were optional.

[StarSlayer]

@StarSlayer

They're just ideas. Just because they would be hard or impossible to make work at the moment doesn't mean they shouldn't be talked about. Do you think we would have come up with things like the US Constitution, language, etc, if we only talked about what was expressly possible at the moment?

I swear, you get so worked up over it, it's just an idea. Why don't you try answering those questions yourself and maybe see where I'm coming from? I'm not saying it's a flawless proposal, it's just a proposal.

Anyway, to answer some of your questions, like fire departments and police departments - you could rely more on community training and democratize the skills; pay a large number of the populace to go through the training, and pay a small subset of the populace a retainer for them to keep practicing their skills.

If more people knew how to take care of problems like fires, or how to negotiate with people or avoid dangerous situations that would require police protection, then there would be less of a need to maintain an (expensive) force specifically for dealing with those problems. In fact, if more people knew at least basic knowledge, they would be able to form local groups to deal with issues.

It's the same principle as, say, in Israel or Finland, where everyone goes through military training, so everyone at least has basic survival skills, and knows how to work in a team to solve a problem.

The lack of basic services like city water and electricity would encourage most people to pay a water and electricity tax.

You do pay a water and electricity tax, that's called your utilities bill.

I know, I was saying if taxes were optional.

This should be self evident but, how do you provide for your community training program if not a large enough subset of the populace bothers to pay for it?  How do you implement police and or fire services on a per paid basis?  Does law and order not exist on property where you don't pay taxes?  Similarly utilities can not function to provide cherry picked service, specifically lets look at electricity.  It costs a large initial  investment to pay for the basic infrastructure, the poles, the wires the transformers the meters, etc.  That's followed by the regular costs to maintain that infrastructure, line trucks, trained linemen, spare parts to fix broken hardware.  On top of that the utility company needs to reach out to electricity generating firms to purchase the electricity its going to distribute across its grid.  That level of infrastructure isn't going to be supported if it can't draw from a large customer base.  If you can't support those costs then you cannot provide electricity for anyone, even those who might be willing to pay.  Roadways, gas, fire departments, water, etc. revenue needs to support the costs of doing business.

I ask these questions because it is obvious your suggestions do not take into account the very fundamentals of how society works.  The onus is not on me to make your naive imaginings manifest, especially when its starkly obvious they wouldn't survive first contact with reality.

[Unknown Target]

This should be self evident but, how do you provide for your community training program if not a large enough subset of the populace bothers to pay for it?

Obviously you can't. If the community didn't feel that it needed a certain department at that time, then why continue it? It will only be draining resources.

It costs a large initial  investment to pay for the basic infrastructure, the poles, the wires the transformers the meters, etc.

Good thing most of that already exists in America.

 

That's followed by the regular costs to maintain that infrastructure, line trucks, trained linemen, spare parts to fix broken hardware.  On top of that the utility company needs to reach out to electricity generating firms to purchase the electricity its going to distribute across its grid.  That level of infrastructure isn't going to be supported if it can't draw from a large customer base.  If you can't support those costs then you cannot provide electricity for anyone, even those who might be willing to pay.  Roadways, gas, fire departments, water, etc. revenue needs to support the costs of doing business.

If individual members of a community don't feel that it's necessary to maintain certain roads, or that there are no repairs to be done, then why pay for the maintenance? Not everything needs to be kept in pristine condition 24/7 in order to perform it's function or job.

"That level of infrastructure isn't going to be supported if it can't draw from a large customer base."
 "Roadways, gas, fire departments, water, etc. revenue needs to support the costs of doing business"

Those phrases are, to me, evident of a very capitalist, business-driven idea of how to mantain a society.

I ask these questions because it is obvious your suggestions do not take into account the very fundamentals of how society works.

How current society works and how has society has worked in the past, yes, my suggestion assumes that we might actually find a better way instead of just repeating what we've done before.

[The E]

Those phrases are, to me, evident of a very capitalist, business-driven idea of how to mantain a society.

Here's a problem though. Infrastructure building and maintenance is NOT a task you want to hand over to capitalist firms. Witness the epic fail that resulted once train companies went private in the UK and Germany.

States ARE better at doing this sort of thing than private companies.

If individual members of a community don't feel that it's necessary to maintain certain roads, or that there are no repairs to be done, then why pay for the maintenance? Not everything needs to be kept in pristine condition 24/7 in order to perform it's function or job.

What. Yes, it actually does. A train line that isn't kept in operating condition is a potential train crash waiting to happen. A power grid that is not maintained is a brownout or blackout in waiting. Roads that are left to rot are accidents that haven't happened yet. Note, I am not talking about "pristine" condition. I'm talking about "operating" condition, which takes just as much maintenance. Once you start to skimp on that, you WILL have issues. Or rather, dead people.

[Unknown Target]

Those phrases are, to me, evident of a very capitalist, business-driven idea of how to mantain a society.

Here's a problem though. Infrastructure building and maintenance is NOT a task you want to hand over to capitalist firms. Witness the epic fail that resulted once train companies went private in the UK and Germany.

States ARE better at doing this sort of thing than private companies.

Totally agree.

If individual members of a community don't feel that it's necessary to maintain certain roads, or that there are no repairs to be done, then why pay for the maintenance? Not everything needs to be kept in pristine condition 24/7 in order to perform it's function or job.

What. Yes, it actually does. A train line that isn't kept in operating condition is a potential train crash waiting to happen. A power grid that is not maintained is a brownout or blackout in waiting. Roads that are left to rot are accidents that haven't happened yet. Note, I am not talking about "pristine" condition. I'm talking about "operating" condition, which takes just as much maintenance. Once you start to skimp on that, you WILL have issues. Or rather, dead people.

Well then why do you need trains, busses, private cars, jets, etc? Focus on things that are the most cost effective to maintain and operate, rather than trying to maintain the facilities for everything.

Again, the basic thrust of what I'm talking about is cutting down and stripping away things that we may think we need but really don't.

[StarSlayer]

Funny enough what your arguing ends up being extremely selfish and shortsighted.  You've actually traveled so far to the left you've reached the same arguments as the hard corps libertarians on the right.  Paying taxes for utilities and public services is for the betterment of all.  Education, the services provided by public safety, well maintained utilities benefit the entire society.  Sure you might think you personally don't need to benefit from the things taxes pay for, and for a while its possible you  might not see the consequences, but eventually as infrastructure collapses, teeming masses of people are left uneducated, and the rule of law deteriorates that is eventually going to bite you in the ass hard.

Being able to receive an education, not having to worry about being murdered on a whim, access to electiricty and clean running water, and being able to use public transport without fear of the bridge falling into the river make for a higher standard of living.  If you are very interested in seeing what happens when society collapses, there are plenty of historic examples for you to perusal, or perhaps you can visit one of the places on this planet that are currently going through a wave of violent anarchy and collapse.

[Unknown Target]

It seems like you assume I think I won't be paying taxes? I'd pay them; but I'd like to experiment with direct taxation for projects; I would pay what I can afford for projects such as education, healthcare, etc.

Anyway, we're getting off topic, unless you want tie tie this discussion back into the situation in Greece? The riots seem to be getting worse.

I'll respond to your post later if no one else has anything to say about the main topic of the thread; at the moment I'm a bit too busy at work today to go into a debate about governance and taxation. I want to discuss it, but yea, duty calls.

[peterv]

About the riots: For the first time, a TV journalist called the police spokesman a "servant of foreign occupation forces", directly and publicly.
The traitors made a big mistake launching a massive attack against the demonstrators. There are many videos of provocateurs hiding inside the parliament under the police protection. Thank God, these guys are idiots.

One of the videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s39q-n_UE74&feature=player_embedded

[MP-Ryan]

The more I read about it, the more I think Greece is an economic lost cause.  Admitting them into the currency and financial arrangements of the EU was a huge mistake that everyone else is going to seriously regret.

That said, I honestly think Greece is on a path to default no matter what happens, so it might be better to save everyone the pain and let it go now, rather than later.  Though I do wonder if the Greeks who refuse to pay taxes AND the Greeks rioting/protesting actually realize how bad the consequences of the inevitable default are going to be.

Not a good situation.

[peterv]

The more I read about it, the more I think Greece is an economic lost cause.  Admitting them into the currency and financial arrangements of the EU was a huge mistake that everyone else is going to seriously regret.

That said, I honestly think Greece is on a path to default no matter what happens, so it might be better to save everyone the pain and let it go now, rather than later.  Though I do wonder if the Greeks who refuse to pay taxes AND the Greeks rioting/protesting actually realize how bad the consequences of the inevitable default are going to be.

Not a good situation.

Every serious economist said that Greece is on path to default a year ago. But EU and IMF wanted to save the banks and hypothecate Greece. EU people are also victims of the same propaganda

[Unknown Target]

I posted that quote to a German friend of mine, peterv. He started the conversation off from the perspective of a German annoyed with the Greeks, but now I think perhaps he has shifted his position a little, even if it might not be evident from the section of conversation below.

Unknown Target: "Every serious economist said that Greece is on path to default a year ago. But EU and IMF wanted to save the banks and hypothecate Greece. EU people are also victims of the same propaganda"
******: hmm
******: what would happen if they did default
Unknown Target: I think that there's this false derisiveness being promoted by media and news outlets that aims to keep people separated
Unknown Target: but i dont know, thats just a theory
Unknown Target: and people are talking about the crashing of the euro and the entire economic system
Unknown Target: if it's that weak then maybe it should crash, yeesh
Unknown Target: are we going to have to go through more "too big to fail"?
******: well yes, media is a way to manipulate the population, no more and no less
******: I don't know how the news look for your country, but around here you might notice a certain rythm of new horror stories that I think are just meant to keep the population busy with something other than politics
Unknown Target: same
Unknown Target: that's why I say you and the greeks may have more in common...same with us in america
******: keep the population unhappy and in fear and you can manipulate them with little effort to do your bidding
Unknown Target: I think what country's leaders are/should be most afraid of isn't other country's citizens bombing us
Unknown Target: but instead us realizing how similar we all are
Unknown Target: at this point a country's borders have never felt more contrived and artificial
******: more to the point that none of our governments would survive its citizens waking up
Unknown Target: yup

[peterv]

I remember my self writing in one blog that "No focus magazine or any other crap is going to make me hate Germans".
That was more than a year ago and it still believe it, but i don't think that globalization would solve anything at all.
Nations don't really need to be similar, at least not from the cultural point of view. Difference makes our lifes more interesting. But it is vital for our civilization to become friends and realize that we need to get involved with politics and get rid of bustards such as our "prime-minister" and most of EU's leadership.
Thanks UT, this dialog was very interesting and optimistic.

[Unknown Target]

I thought this was interesting;

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/how-the-greeks-are-handling-the-burden-of-austerity-measures-59202.html

[peterv]

I thought this was interesting;

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/how-the-greeks-are-handling-the-burden-of-austerity-measures-59202.html

Very!

"I don't want to share what I want to say to the prime minister. It would sound extreme."

Unfortunately the same goes to Mrs Clinton  for offering support  to the traitor.