Author Topic: Peace  (Read 12076 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
  • 212
  • Push.Pull?
I was just thinking about it. I think the last time the world was at peace was…wow, was there ever a time? I know the US has been pretty much “at war” since 1941. Do any of us even know what that’s like anymore? I know for the last ten years we have had soldiers dying every year, almost every day for awhile. I think the last time there was peace in Western Civilization was what, in the Grecian times?

EDIT: Original thread title: "Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like? "
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 11:46:07 pm by Unknown Target »

 
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
Oh please.  :rolleyes:

The world is probably more peaceful now than it's ever been before, if you're talking on a global scale. Hell, since WWII, the continent of Europe has actually stopped having wars among its constituent countries for the first time... ever, if I'm remembering my Western History properly.

If you're looking for a total and complete peace over the entirety of Earth... well, don't hold your breath. I'm pretty sure that's never happened.
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

 

Offline Nuke

  • Ka-Boom!
  • 212
  • Mutants Worship Me
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
frankly i wish the us would drop its peaceful facade and go for an all out world domination policy. i think that would be pretty cool.

If you're looking for a total and complete peace over the entirety of Earth... well, don't hold your breath. I'm pretty sure that's never happened.

thats what nukes are for.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
Having been born in the Cold War, with the Troubles in Northern Ireland occupying a large part of my childhood, and frequent PLO hijacks acting as a sort of punctuation to this, I can't really remember a period of my life when there hasn't been some kind of 'threat' hanging over our heads.

When the USSR collapsed, I think a lot of people thought that constituted 'peace', though I'm pretty sure the occupants of the ex-states would disagree, but from the perspective of the West, it seemed like the same thing because it was a bunch of countries arguing amongst themselves and the looming threat of Nuclear War with them faded greatly.

I've always thought of politics as kind of like really fast tectonics, years of pressure may seem like nothing is wrong, but it just tends to mean that when the fault slips, the Earthquake is all the bigger.

 

Offline BrotherBryon

  • 29
  • Resident Lurker
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
It might not be possible for there to be truly a lasting peace among civilizations though we may strive for it. That is the goal of the United Nations is it not? To provide a forum where nations can resolve their differences without relying on war. It is possible to find personal peace should one seek it but on a global scale it is just impossible. There is always some conflict going on somewhere whether you are aware of it or not. All we can hope to do is contain it as best as possible. Our level of technology would make another world war a calamity on a scale never seen before. Also soldiers die in peace time as well as in times of war just not in the same numbers though it is much higher than one would think. I lost a good friend in a training accident and nearly had my own head taken off in a maintenance accident. It is truly a dangerous occupation whether it be deployed over seas or at home in garrison.
Holy Crap. SHIVANS! Tours

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
your tone makes it sound like you think there was a time in your life when there was 'peace'. granted the mid 90s were slightly more peaceful than present for the US, but that's only because we were ignoring all the problems that we are having to deal with now.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
@OP: No, and you don't either.

 

Offline Nuke

  • Ka-Boom!
  • 212
  • Mutants Worship Me
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
war is what we do.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline watsisname

Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
I remember there was this time when I was prospecting on a ridge and then I fell off and hit my head really hard and I'm pretty sure while I was laying there trembling and gasping for breath I was at peace but then this guy came and he lifted my head up and said something to me, he said it to me gently and then he called me a cocksocker and slammed my head into a rock and it hurt




/deadwood reference out of nowhere just because
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
  • 212
  • Push.Pull?
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
BrotherBryon, I imagine if more of the people running things found personal peace, we wouldn't have as many issues today. There are always peaceful solutions, yet it seems as if most of the time people don't have the patience to find them.

Flipside; yea I'd say the only time of "peace" was post - Cold war. Like Bobbau said though, it was probably because we didn't deal with a lot of the problems we're facing now.
I'd like to point out, though, that that does not mean that we are incapable of lasting peace; though apathy would be it's greatest enemy.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 07:17:39 am by Unknown Target »

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
I have a better question: do you know what war is like?
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

  

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
  • 212
  • Push.Pull?
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
Good question; no, not personally. The United States has internally been at peace for 150+ years. So you could use that as proof that peace can happen on large scales for long periods of time, if those involved have a basic understanding amongst themselves.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 07:27:32 am by Unknown Target »

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
BrotherBryon, I imagine if more of the people running things found personal peace, we wouldn't have as many issues today. There are always peaceful solutions, yet it seems as if most of the time people don't have the patience to find them.

I am quite sure that the middle east, africa, the balkan, and all the other ****ty little not-first-world regions of this Earth where armed conflict is something very real will be glad to hear that all they lack for true happiness is a little personal peace.

I'm sorry, UT, but you cannot simplify the problem down to that level. Your bright-eyed idealism is getting in the way of your ability to accurately analyze the reasons for conflicts, and your ability to generate viable solutions.

Quote
Flipside; yea I'd say the only time of "peace" was post - Cold war. Like Bobbau said though, it was probably because we didn't deal with a lot of the problems we're facing now.
I'd like to point out, though, that that does not mean that we are incapable of lasting peace; though apathy would be it's greatest enemy.

Wrong. Post-cold war was only Peace in the very narrow sense of us not being a few phone calls and button presses away from annihilation by nuclear weaponry. It should also be noted that among the fallout of the cold war ending was the first armed conflict on continental european soil in almost 4 decades. Face it, no person alive has ever known a period of world peace lasting more than a week. Just because you do not hear about it on the news doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Good question; no, not really. The United States has internally been at peace for 150+ years. So you could use that as proof that peace can happen on large scales for long periods of time, if those involved have a basic understanding amongst themselves.

You cannot hold a single country, no matter how large and populous, up as an example for peace on a large scale.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
  • 212
  • Push.Pull?
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
So then what can I use as an example?

I'm not talking from bright-eyed idealism; if you want a list of all the reasons for conflict I could probably give you a huge chunk of it. Why isn't personal peace the answer? Think about it; what does that include? Enough food to eat, a place that's safe to sleep, functioning utilities. It's not "Zomg we can all become happy by just wishing for it" - it's real facts. What is personal peace? What is personal happiness? What do we define it as? Who said I was simplifying the problem? Why do you assume I'm wrong, because what I preach is peace? Would you like to tell MLK, Ghandi, and countless others that they did not understand the situation they were involved in, because they dared utter a word of hope?

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
And in honest truth, has the United States really known peace for those 150 years? We invaded Mexico briefly just before the First World War. The World Wars did not intrude upon the soil of the continental US, but they had massive social and economic ramifications, and "not intruded upon the soil" is an inherently finicky definition when there was a six-month-long massacre just off the Eastern Seaboard in early 1942 among other assaults on the US that came right up to the beach and sometimes over it, but didn't involve boots on the ground.

Today, now, war is not far from where I sit to write this. No more the twenty-five miles from here and I would be in Mexico, and there are studies that suggest one is more likely to be killed in drug-related violence in Mexico then you are to be killed in an actual war in Afghanistan. It doesn't stop at the international border, it merely slows down.

Peace is an illusion purchased at the price of your willingness to shut your eyes.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
  • 212
  • Push.Pull?
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
War is what you receive when you refuse to open them.

EDIT: Let me expand upon that. For instance, let's use Mexico. You say "this war is what's happening. Accept it. You are wrong for believing in peace because I know that war is close to me.".

Rather than simply accepting that war, as many people are prone to doing, let's examine the causes for it; obviously the US's drug policies are a major contributing factor to the power of the drug cartels. The US and other first world countries also rely on cheap Mexican labor to produce goods at low prices - therefore it is in the best interests of many US companies to keep Mexico impoverished. The Mexican government itself has declared martial law in many places; though many of the citizens, I've heard, reject the use of national guard and army troops, despite the violence. People still flee across the border to the US, still because of work but also now because of safety.

This fighting, I would call it a war against the Mexican state, has been growing in intensity for several years, and looks only to be getting worse.

You would have be stay silent and "accept the reality" of these wars? It seems as if you shut your eyes and say "these wars are what happen. They cannot be stopped. This is reality. This is the way things are. Anyone who believes differently is a fool that must be silenced and ridiculed".

Instead, why do you not think of alternatives? I can think of many; such as a public referendum where US war policy is decided by the people instead of by it's political class; what would happen if the US legalized all it's drugs, ended the "War on Drugs", brought it's troops back home, and offered protection for Mexican citizens under the guidelines of the US Constitution? How well do you think the Cartels would do then?

It is easier for you to accept atrocities when they are made into the norm; you are conditioned and trained to accept these things as a fact of life, rather than question them and see if there is another way.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 08:15:14 am by Unknown Target »

 

Offline Rodo

  • Custom tittle
  • 212
  • stargazer
    • Steam
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
Until fishheadz come, it's human on human all day long baby.
el hombre vicio...

 
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
As globalization spreads and solidifies, with the European Union, African Union, Asian Union and North American Union, wars are less and less about one country against another, but governments against it's peoples. For that to be solidified, globalism needs to eliminate any competitors, hence Iran, Syria, Libya, and others in the visors.

The only way to achieve peace is to go embrace the rather new ideas of a sovereign republic (Not republican or left/right/whatever) that was first introduced in 1776. It may need an update but it's the closest thing. No need to wage war when you're self sufficient and make friends with other countries. As such, globalism when tied down with the rules of a collective of sovereign republics and countries could actually propel us to the stars in record pace, instead of the slow erosion and shut down of development throughout the first world.

At least, that's how I look at it.
I'm all about getting the most out of games, so whenever I discover something very strange or push the limits, I upload them here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/JCDentonCZ

-----------------

The End of History has come and gone.

 

Offline Nuke

  • Ka-Boom!
  • 212
  • Mutants Worship Me
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
if the governments leegalized drugs that would make me a very happy person (at least until i od and died).
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Kind of a sobering thought for me; do any of you remember what peace was like?
War is what you receive when you refuse to open them.

War can only be made by those with open eyes, so that they may see the enemy and strike them. It is no accident that every war of the modern age has begun at a time when the population supported it. This provides some of the enduring paradoxes of history (that Japan, already heartily sick of its war in China, could react so enthusiastically to the decision to go to war with the United States in 1941), but it remains true nonetheless.

Rather than simply accepting that war, as many people are prone to doing, let's examine the causes for it; obviously the US's drug policies are a major contributing factor to the power of the drug cartels.

Stop right there. This comment alone demonstrates that you do not have sufficient grounding in the origins and the history of Mexico's current conflict to commentate authoritatively on it. The current conflict in Mexico has many of the players in the War on Drugs, but it is not born of it.

It began a good ten years ago, not under the aegis of the US War on Drugs, which Mexico vocally will have no part of, but with a promise: we will clean up the corruption of the government. A worthy goal, yes? It was even, possibly, an achievable one. The United States was eager to help, but Mexico remembers its wars with the US sharply and will take little help or support from those who are still remembered as Imperialist Yankees.

It has progressed in scale and violence today to the point where government control of some areas in Mexico is largely theoretical. We are up to the level of open rebellion. You cannot manage that on the power of the almighty dollar alone.

The argument that if we legalized everything things would change is bankrupt. It would simply lend legitimacy to and reduce costs of the existing illegal system of distribution, and Mexico would still be having open rebellion. California's experiment with marijuana legalization has more or less proved the point that we don't have a system in place that can actually handle the legalization of drugs in a meaningful method; we treat them like pharmaceuticals but the illegal market remains, and we don't end up actually treating them like pharmaceuticals anyways.

If the War on Drugs ended today, Mexico's war to drag itself out of the Third World (and make no mistake, that is exactly what is going on) would still be going ten years from now and more, and it would only worsen. The roots of Mexico's conflicts lie in economics. Without the cartels it's possible the war would have been delayed. It's also much more likely that it would have been lost like Iran's has been.

You would have be stay silent and "accept the reality" of these wars? It seems as if you shut your eyes and say "these wars are what happen. They cannot be stopped. This is reality. This is the way things are. Anyone who believes differently is a fool that must be silenced and ridiculed".

You give yourself a great deal of credit for being able to read my mind in this. It is credit you do not deserve. Indeed the more credit you give yourself for claiming to understand my mindset, the more I am driven to hold you in utter contempt.

So let me speak plainly, sir. War is indeed reality; the reality that we live in an imperfect world, surrounded by imperfect people imperfectly interpreting imperfect systems of beliefs. Your naivety on this subject does you no favors. This does not mean they cannot be stopped. It also does not mean they should be stopped.

War is a cruel instrument. It destroys lives, families, governments, order, and even faith. But there are things that need destroying and times when lesser instruments are ineffective in the face of another's will to impose their desires via violence. As long as some will reach for a weapon to settle disputes, even those who would be accorded righteous will have need of war.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story