Author Topic: On Islam and the West  (Read 4354 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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Re: On Islam and the West
is this the same Luis?
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On Islam and the West
There is a difference between the moral nihilism of implying that the Saudi culture has equal footing to our culture, and the obvious realization that there is no objective / absolute moral reference anywhere in sight. Many people refer to the first as "moral relativism", well fine I've long quit dissuading people of that definition, and have used it without rigor as well (since everyone else uses it anyway).

I've also come some way from that time. I no longer call Sam a "fool" (specially after his debate against William Lane Craig), although I still heavily disagree that the "moral landscape" is a viable scientific research program (mostly because it will spur a lot of pseudo-scientific statistical rubbish that will be used to preach prejudices and agendas).


It is a dangerous and unstable path, the search for a morally superior state of affairs. But we have to do so and we have to assert our core values and aspirations, unless you want to walk the path of Nietzsche's prophetized endgame of moral nihilism.

This is why I do think that the "anti-multiculturalists" have a point. Unfortunately, they are heavily polluted with racism and xenophobia, destroying the issue altogether and polarizing it between racists and naive multiculturalists, to which all the cultural problems are solved with materialistic and economic solutions.

This is why whenever I see someone saying that we should not be proud of our own values and try to spread them all over the world, that such is a sign of "hubris" and the sign that we are like "the fanatics", I cringe, I react. It's simply not true. I hope more people realize that, before the second and third world get their act together and become more economically powerful than Europe and America combined. Because if we don't get our act together then, we might just find our morality being subdued, changed and degraded to medieval or oppressive values. Specially if we think that perhaps our morals aren't that good, that perhaps the chinese way is better, or the Iran's, I mean what do we know about morals....


Bobboau, notice what I said there:

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I should tell you though that "moral relativism" as a guide does suck. This because MR is no moral guide at all, only an empirical observation of a state of affairs, i.e. that morals are not absolute and are different from place to place, people to people, and there is no "higher" moral authority to obey. (Such is the obvious consequence of stripping out religion from your philosophy: the end of all absolutisms).

 

Offline Mars

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Re: On Islam and the West
If Arab women are statistically just as happy as American women, perhaps we're on equal moral footing.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On Islam and the West
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

Thats' "technically" correct Mars, just don't say anything as silly as that near women you might be interested in, mkay?

  

Offline Mars

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Re: On Islam and the West
My point is exactly that. Women in the Middle East are, by majority, repressed; even more than they might still be here in the West. I don't think that's the only thing that we, the West, do better by our people either. Yes we have problems, but we usually don't kill people for losing virginity, or cursing the prophet.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: On Islam and the West
Quote
This is why whenever I see someone saying that we should not be proud of our own values and try to spread them all over the world, that such is a sign of "hubris" and the sign that we are like "the fanatics", I cringe

Just as I cringe and react when you read stuff into comments that quite simply do not exist or were not even said, or completely miss out large sections of the meaning of a post purely for the sake of 'argumenting on teh Interwebs'. You talk of Hubris over one thing when I quite clearly stated that it was to do with using the name of important religious figures in vain and was nothing whatsoever to do with spreading our values all over the world, it's just another example of you trying to twist other people's statements purely for the sake of getting up on your soap-box. Read again what I said earlier, which, in it's own case, was a re-iteration of something I had said even earlier.

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As I stated earlier, I didn't agree that calling a bear by the name of a Prophet was that big an issue, but then, I'm agnostic, and in the West, we use the name of the Son of God as an expletive on numerous occasions. Doesn't bother me, but to assume that because we can take something like that tongue-in-cheek means that everyone else must do so as well is little more than hubris on our own part. But in a similar mind, the Islamic culture has to accept that we do not operate by those same rules in our own countries, whether they like it or not.

I'm getting sick of having to repeat myself. You've claimed I stated that our society wasn't concerned with dealing with the remaining Women's rights' issues, which I didn't, you claimed that I implied that we could learn from Fundamentalist Islamic values, which I didn't. I'm not even sure what thread you were reading any more.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:03:26 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline Mars

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Re: On Islam and the West
The whole point of it was that she wasn't in the West, if she was in a country where our values and opinions applied then the law would be silly, she wasn't, she was in a country where a different set of rules applied, whether you agree with those rules or not are immaterial, time and time again it has been proven that attempting to force one cultures values onto another is doomed to far more trouble than it is intended to solve.

As far as the matter of calling a bear Mohammed is concerned, the mentality is the same, 'It isn't what I would do in that situation, ergo, it is wrong'. You know full well I am talking about the structure of the law, not the level of the crime, that is what is at issue here, anyone thinking they somehow have the moral high-ground over another culture is just a ticket to more trouble, as the events in Norway have shown.

Mentality is the same - calling bear Mohammed; vigilante killing. I assumed you meant that they were on a similar ethical plane as well. Did you mean the mindset of blind departure from a societies values for no good reason?

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: On Islam and the West
Oh good grief, not another one...

For the fourth time in this thread, the mentality that demanding our own laws be applied in a country where other laws apply must result in compliance any more than other cultures expecting us to do the same. I didn't even mention the ethical standpoint.

Does nobody read threads any more?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:18:07 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: On Islam and the West
You know what? Forget it. If people are going to selectively pick and choose sections of posts, and deliberately misquote and misinterpret them purely for the sake of creatiing their own personal reason to take offence, then never mind, it's obvious there's no point whatsoever to trying to have an intelligent conversation.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:26:04 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: On Islam and the West
If you are incapable of seing the difference between calling a bear mohamed and a honour killing, I'll advise you to catch up your reading until you are able to do so, and until then any discussion we might have may just go over your head.
I do believe you need to read a bit more before you completely dismiss someones point. Misunderstandings like this are exactly what cause conflict...

I agree with this 100% and since Luis has been warned about this kind of behaviour repeatedly he's getting a week off to learn how to read.
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