Author Topic: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted and too thick  (Read 14667 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted and too thick
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/WikiLeaks+sparks+fury+with+release+unredacted+cables/5345348/story.html

What the article doesn't discuss is what a setback this is going to be for recruitment of human intelligence sources.  Transparency is laudable; but a little pragmatism in realizing just how important it is for diplomatic and intelligence sources to be candid of their assessments in reports is necessary.  Wikileaks doesn't seem to get that, and this release puts lives, sources, and quality intelligence at risk.

These aren't embarrassing but otherwise harmless state opinions Wikileaks is releasing - these are the names and identifiers of human beings who risk their lives to provide information that can and does save lives.  Accurate intelligence-gathering and diplomacy saves lives - a lack of it costs them.

Maybe now the bleating conspiracy-loving-sheep that have been cheering on Assange will start to realize just how dangerous information can be, but I sincerely doubt it.  Most of them couldn't find a lesson in history if they were forced to read a whole ****ing library.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 01:39:56 pm by Nuke »
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Meh.

Nobody has any business spying on anybody, and the less people able to get away with it the better.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
I'm still waiting for the equal reports from Russian actions
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Offline Flaser

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
I'm still waiting for the equal reports from Russian actions
The fact there *aren't* any, shows how much of a real democratic state Russia is. The Putin/Medvedev administration has public support, it was democratically elected, but one can't say that as a whole for the country's institutions and attitudes toward civil liberties.... i.e. Russian whistle-blowers are too scared.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Nobody has any business spying on anybody, and the less people able to get away with it the better.

Now there's a spectacularly naive and uninformed opinion.  That might work on a planet where everyone gets along and there are enough resources, food, and absolutely no conflicts, but here on Earth where most of us reside, intelligence-gathering contributes to the safety of nations, and candid diplomacy prevents large-scale conflicts.  Without both of those things, "Western" civilization would not exist.

But thanks for demonstrating my point about the apparent uselessness of history education.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Sure, release of classified information can indirectly put lives at risk... just like it can indirectly help save lives. I think it's a mistake to release them unredacted unless they were indeed already leaked from The Guardian, but it's hard to say whether it's better or worse than not releasing them at all.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
On a seperate side of the coin, I have a concern that this may well be the catalyst for sweeping, knee-jerk legislation regarding the Internet in the US and probably several other Western powers. There's a risk it might change online-rights forever. And, yes, I know the server wasn't in the US, but we are talking about Governments here, who are more concerned with apparent action than genuine solutions.

  

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Nobody has any business spying on anybody, and the less people able to get away with it the better.

Now there's a spectacularly naive and uninformed opinion.  That might work on a planet where everyone gets along and there are enough resources, food, and absolutely no conflicts, but here on Earth where most of us reside, intelligence-gathering contributes to the safety of nations, and candid diplomacy prevents large-scale conflicts.  Without both of those things, "Western" civilization would not exist.

But thanks for demonstrating my point about the apparent uselessness of history education.

My opinion may be shared by naive or uninformed people, but I am neither naive nor uninformed. Rather, I am sick of pessimistic attitudes (like your own) getting in the way of actually solving the world's problems.

You say we can't afford to stop spying because other people haven't stopped spying on us. They tell themselves the same thing. How bout we man up and set a ****ing precedent?

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Because then the people who are still spying hold an undeniable (literally.  We could no longer stop them at all) advantage.  Why the hell would anyone give up an advantage like that?  To be nice?  Yeah, **** that.

Setting a nice little example might work within a group of individuals, but when you get to groups of populations, simple stuff falls apart.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Rather, I am sick of pessimistic attitudes (like your own) getting in the way of actually solving the world's problems.

Out of curiosity, how is it that being unable to speak candidly to those you conflict with is going make solving problems easier?
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Because then the people who are still spying hold an undeniable (literally.  We could no longer stop them at all) advantage.  Why the hell would anyone give up an advantage like that?  To be nice?  Yeah, **** that.

Wait... you say don't give up an advantage to be nice, because no one else would do the same because no one gives up an advantage just to be nice? Doesn't make much sense.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
My opinion may be shared by naive or uninformed people, but I am neither naive nor uninformed. Rather, I am sick of pessimistic attitudes (like your own) getting in the way of actually solving the world's problems.

You say we can't afford to stop spying because other people haven't stopped spying on us. They tell themselves the same thing. How bout we man up and set a ****ing precedent?

Scenario:  NATO ceases espionage/counterespionage tomorrow.

Results:  China gains even larger economic and technological advantages, at the expense of Western powers.  Goods under embargo or sanction (including weapons, software, and tech) make their way to nations like Iran, Syria, and countless other totalitarian human rights abusers.  Net result:  internal democracy movement in Iran has no hope in hell of success, "Arab Spring" loses momentum as regimes are better able to conduct surveillance and counter-insurgency operations against their own citizenry (since the Western intelligence apparatus that was actually capable of causing disarray is now defunct).  North Korea successfully mounts invasion of Seoul as early-warning HUMINT sources have been eliminated, and NATO is militarily caught unawares.  Pakistan/Afghanistan resume more overt support of Al-Quaeda-inspired activity in the Middle East.  Europe loses its capability to detect and counter extremist operations on their home soil.

Each and every single one of those results is not only possible, its plausible.  That's not fear-mongering or pessimism, that's a healthy understanding and respect for the importance of the work intelligence agencies do.  The trouble is, intelligence only gets discussed when it fails: nobody actually knows or understands how much work goes on behind the scenes unless it fails to prevent a problem.  The attacks on September 11, 2001 were a fantastic example of this - US overseas HUMINT sources were severely cut in the late 80s and throughout the 1990s, with increasing reliance on technological solutions.  The signs were there, the people to read them weren't.

Cut back a little further in history.  The main reason the Cold War ended is because the US came to the realization (courtesy of intelligence gathering) that they could actually out-spend the Soviets.  The collapse of the USSR came about for a whole host of colliding reasons, but the catalyst was the realization that the USSR was essentially broke - information which came to light because of intelligence gathering.

If we'd like to skip back another couple decades, part of the reason the Cold War became the arms escalating-conflict it did was a failure in counterintelligence - namely, the direct loss of atomic weapons secrets from the United States to the USSR in the first place.  Granted, the USSR had a program in place, but some estimates put them as much as 10 years behind the Allies at the end of WW2 - right up until those secrets were taken.  Now, considering the lives lost and misery wrought in Eastern Europe as a large part of the expansion of the USSR (made possible in part by weapons-equivalency), that's a pretty spectacular intelligence failure.

Back during WW2, there were numerous intelligence successes and failures.  The story of ENIGMA is relatively well-known; the extent of SAS infiltration behind German lines from 1943-45 isn't, but it was significant.  The Germans had a few of their own, with fairly high-level infiltration in Britain that permitted them to gauge the British reaction before and when war first broke out.  They also had some failures; had they known quite how close Britain's air force was to total destruction during the Battle of Britain, WW2 might have had a very different ending.  The same is true of Operation Overlord - Allied intelligence made a massive effort at misinformation regarding timing and location of the D-Day landings, an effort the Germans actually largely saw right through; it was Hitler's interference on the Atlantic Wall that partially accounted for the successes on June 6, 1944.

Then again, there's the Nazis military rise to reflect on as well.  Had British and French intelligence been more capable (and their leaders better listeners), the German military expansion in contravention of the Treaty of Versailles might have been caught much earlier, and the reaction more harsh.

I can keep going back here, but I really don't see the need.  Intelligence and counterintelligence is an essential part of security operation in every country.  It works.  It saves lives.  If we do as you suggest and "set a precedent," everyone who doesn't can and will promptly take advantage of it.  Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, there are a lot of people on this planet who harm each other for no reason other than they are "different."  I sincerely hope that you never actually need to learn that lesson firsthand.  So yes, your opinion is naive and uninformed.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Sad fact is, you'll never stop the transfer of covert information with the transfer of covert information, what Wikileaks did is just 'public spying'.

All this has really served to do is weaken the US information gathering structure, a fact that will without doubt be exploited by other nations, which is more likely to make such information even less accessible to the public in the future. And I can't help feeling that 'the public interest' drifted away from the minds of Wikileaks a long time ago in favour of 'Public interest in the site', and that this is more about revenge than revelation.

It's the fact that it is unredacted that worries me most, it seems it was done not because of the publics 'right to know', but because it would attract more interest that way.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Sad fact is, you'll never stop the transfer of covert information with the transfer of covert information, what Wikileaks did is just 'public spying'.

All this has really served to do is weaken the US information gathering structure, a fact that will without doubt be exploited by other nations, which is more likely to make such information even less accessible to the public in the future. And I can't help feeling that 'the public interest' drifted away from the minds of Wikileaks a long time ago in favour of 'Public interest in the site', and that this is more about revenge than revelation.

It's the fact that it is unredacted that worries me most, it seems it was done not because of the publics 'right to know', but because it would attract more interest that way.

This times a thousand.

I keep searching the site for an article I swear I posted last time Wikileaks came up but I can't find it.  It was written by a Canadian diplomat, and discussed how crucial it is for diplomats to be able to share the unsweetened truth about the countries they are negotiating with with their political superiors, in order to make informed and relevant decisions.  He cited an example of how mass graves in the Balkans were uncovered as a result of a human source that passed photographs to him, and he then relayed (along with his assessment that the Serbs were lying through their teeth) with his superiors.  Without the type of anonymity normally afforded to diplomatic transmissions, those pictures and that assessment might never have been sent.

I really want to find that article.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Nobody has any business spying on anybody, and the less people able to get away with it the better.

Now there's a spectacularly naive and uninformed opinion.  That might work on a planet where everyone gets along and there are enough resources, food, and absolutely no conflicts, but here on Earth where most of us reside, intelligence-gathering contributes to the safety of nations, and candid diplomacy prevents large-scale conflicts.  Without both of those things, "Western" civilization would not exist.

But thanks for demonstrating my point about the apparent uselessness of history education.

My opinion may be shared by naive or uninformed people, but I am neither naive nor uninformed. Rather, I am sick of pessimistic attitudes (like your own) getting in the way of actually solving the world's problems.

You say we can't afford to stop spying because other people haven't stopped spying on us. They tell themselves the same thing. How bout we man up and set a ****ing precedent?

Ignore Realpolitik?


Get The **** Out!
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Because then the people who are still spying hold an undeniable (literally.  We could no longer stop them at all) advantage.  Why the hell would anyone give up an advantage like that?  To be nice?  Yeah, **** that.

Wait... you say don't give up an advantage to be nice, because no one else would do the same because no one gives up an advantage just to be nice? Doesn't make much sense.

Makes perfect sense.  Don't give up any advantage for a reason that gains you literally nothing.  Ideally, all actions should be undertaken to either grant an advantage or escape a position of disadvantage.  Giving up an advantage to set an example no one will ever follow is stupid.

 

Offline Unknown Target

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Nobody has any business spying on anybody, and the less people able to get away with it the better.

Now there's a spectacularly naive and uninformed opinion.  That might work on a planet where everyone gets along and there are enough resources, food, and absolutely no conflicts, but here on Earth where most of us reside, intelligence-gathering contributes to the safety of nations, and candid diplomacy prevents large-scale conflicts.  Without both of those things, "Western" civilization would not exist.

But thanks for demonstrating my point about the apparent uselessness of history education.

My opinion may be shared by naive or uninformed people, but I am neither naive nor uninformed. Rather, I am sick of pessimistic attitudes (like your own) getting in the way of actually solving the world's problems.

You say we can't afford to stop spying because other people haven't stopped spying on us. They tell themselves the same thing. How bout we man up and set a ****ing precedent?

I agree with this.

Two reasons;

1) If you're completely open then you have nothing to hide; ergo, people spying on you wouldn't have any great advantage over you.

2) The moment you stop playing by your own rules, you sow the seeds of your own destruction. One of the US's original policies was that of an open government. Obviously that's not the case anymore. We are building and have built a massive secret infrastructure within our own country, that is so large, and so extensive, that it's seemingly impossible to find out where any money, legislation, operations, etc, goes within it. It's a massive black box. Even if it's only targeting "terrorists" and everyone in it has perfectly legitimate reasons to be doing what they're doing, in ten or twenty years time, when those people leave, you will have this giant uncontrolled beast lurking within the country that can be exploited by those who would wish to do the country harm - and it can be exploited because all the machinations for secrecy are already there.

Honesty and openness isn't just a good idea; it's a requirement of a long lived and stable society. Democracy, openness, rule by the people, etc, isn't just the most popular form of government, it can also be the most efficient (think of it this way: a dictator needs to spend a lot of money keeping their citizenry in check; a democracy doesn't, or shouldn't - though I can accept people disagreeing with this point), and it is one of the most stable. But only if it follows it's own rules, which the US is not and has not been doing.

Because then the people who are still spying hold an undeniable (literally.  We could no longer stop them at all) advantage.  Why the hell would anyone give up an advantage like that?  To be nice?  Yeah, **** that.

Wait... you say don't give up an advantage to be nice, because no one else would do the same because no one gives up an advantage just to be nice? Doesn't make much sense.

Makes perfect sense.  Don't give up any advantage for a reason that gains you literally nothing.  Ideally, all actions should be undertaken to either grant an advantage or escape a position of disadvantage.  Giving up an advantage to set an example no one will ever follow is stupid.

The good will you'd get from setting that example could probably be better than keeping the spying going. Think of it this way; if we had the reputation as an honest country again, we wouldn't have to "spy" to get information; we could just go up and ask people "Hey, what are they doing?". "Well, why do you want to know?" "Because we think they're doing this. Do you think they are?" "Nope." "Ok.".

People are more willing to help a country that they trust and/or like because they treat them as individuals, rather one that treats them all like potential threats.

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Because then the people who are still spying hold an undeniable (literally.  We could no longer stop them at all) advantage.  Why the hell would anyone give up an advantage like that?  To be nice?  Yeah, **** that.

Wait... you say don't give up an advantage to be nice, because no one else would do the same because no one gives up an advantage just to be nice? Doesn't make much sense.

Makes perfect sense.  Don't give up any advantage for a reason that gains you literally nothing.  Ideally, all actions should be undertaken to either grant an advantage or escape a position of disadvantage.  Giving up an advantage to set an example no one will ever follow is stupid.

Of course it doesn't make sense, because in such a situation your claim that no one would give up an advantage would be untrue because it already happened.

If no one would ever give up an advantage just to be nice, then why would you even bother to argue against the idea of doing so if you believe it can't happen?

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
Well, take the Iranian Nuclear program, if the US stopped trying to find out if they were developing weapons, what are the odds of them turning round and saying "Well, since you've been kind enough to stop trying to find out, we'll give you access to all our information"?

It's a mexican standoff, and blinking is more likely to lead to a lead implant than world peace.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Wikileaks just released the full archive of US cables - unredacted
I always felt like Assange was a total asshole, but at least he's being nice enough to confirm it.