Author Topic: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.  (Read 14109 times)

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Offline Retsof

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A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
A lot of thoughts floating around at the moment aren't there?  Anyway, I was thinking, It should be ridiculously hard to conquer any planet that doesn't want to be.  Even a planet that is low tech by SW standards could put a giant railgun in orbit.  I don't care how good your shields and armor are, there won't be much left after getting hit by a slug the size of a buss at a quarter of the speed of light...  So yeah, thoughts?
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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
 :wtf:

Death Star.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
If you think about this you either go insane, or start thinking you're a ****ing genius like the SD.net guys did and become unable to recognize basic flaws.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
I don't recall railguns being in Starwars
Lot of good a giant railgun does in orbit anyhow. All the invasion force has to do is pop in on the opposite side of the planet and poof, take it out by dispatching a small enough force to eliminate it. Afterall, a giant railgun won't do too well against small vessels now would it

That, and there are benefits to being part of the dark side. Protection for example. It may not be the best alternative, but at least your system is free to go about their business in case Shivans come from nowhere and try to kill everyone
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Offline watsisname

Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
Planet conquering be damned, I just want to know how you would manage the recoil that a gun shooting a projectile the size of a bus at 0.25c would produce...
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Offline redsniper

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
inertial dampeners

Srsly though. Star Wars is by no means hard sci-fi and we could poke logical holes in it all day long if we wanted to. It plays by its own rules. Just take it with a grain of salt and enjoy it as it is. :p
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Offline esarai

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
Well yeah, conquering a planet in and of itself is a hard-as-frak thing to do, as the planet is self-sufficient, and cannot be starved of resources.  While threatening them with complete annihilation would work, all they have to do is wait for you to move your giant laser elsewhere and bam, rebellion all over again.  A more effective strategy would be to glass decently sized population centers or other culturally significant locations. Not all at once, mind you, but in a progression.  Each day they don't surrender, you blow up another city.  The psychological damage from slow, ever-encroaching destruction will last a lot longer, and make the populace generally less willing to rebel, unless you've chosen to f*** with a planet reminiscent of Sparta.  In that case... god help you.  Or god help them.  God help us all when we start shooting Gigajoule and Terajoule-rated lasers at people.

And while we're talking about bus-railguns, a bus, fully loaded, weighs approximately 42700 imperial tons.  This converts to roughly 21410 kg.  0.75c = 7.5 x 10^7 m/s.
KE = .5m(v)^2.

KE = .5(21410)(7.5 x 10^7)^2 = 6.02 x 10^19 Joules, or 60214 Petajoules.

To put it in perspective, the Tsar Bomba detonated at 210 Petajoules.  So we're talking 287 Tsar Bomba's needed to dampen the recoil such a weapon would generate.  This means that whatever you fire at isn't going to be there much longer.  I'd reckon such a weapon would be able to down several star destroyers if it could line them all up. 

For even greater lols, have the projectile fragment into smart kinetic-kill submunitions.  Fleet?  What fleet?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 01:18:16 am by esarai »
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Offline Nuke

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
you know in the early days of underground nuclear weapons testing, a very large metal plate placed atop a shaft that was dug for a warhead test suppository acquired escape velocity when the blast flash vaporized some ground water. weaponize this and you got a thunderwell which could theoretically destroy a large alien spacecraft in a fixed orbit. if you got a warhead, a projectile, some water and can dig a hole, you can make a thunderwell. sort of a real life yammato gun.
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Offline Kadaeux

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
The biggest problem with all this is that an Orbital defence is predictable. (Otherwise it's just a ship with a big honking gun.)

If we take the element that side A is deploying kinetic weapon based orbital defences it has three problems.
  1: Ships move more than planets. If the ships are also using kinetic weaponry they can sit ten to twenty million kilometres out and still hit the target while moving around to avoid that big honking gun. And even then being an Orbital defence if it's moving around the planet below is still hit. (If the shots being fired by both sides are relatavistic then you don't need to be on the 'right approach' to punch through the atmosphere.)
  2: Smaller targets. Fighters are stupidly prevalent in Star Wars. Building a giant anti-capital ship cannon will do you precisely nothing while the Capital ships wait for their bomber wings to take out the orbital defence.
  3: Planets are REALLY big targets in the scheme of things. You can have your honking big orbital cannon, right up until the enemy is firing their own relatavistic projectiles, not at the gun, but at the object it was built to defend.

Oh yes, and there is a fourth.

For all the resources you expended to make a giant relativistic kinetic kill cannon in orbit you may as well have spent the money to make your own capital ships and bomber wings. And every man and his dog seemed to have the resources to do so in the Star Wars galaxy. (I mean hell, apparently in one of the novels the HUTTS built their own weird death-star thing.)

 

Offline watsisname

Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
Esarai:  Two things:  Peta is 1015.  Exa is 1018.  Also the speed of light in vacuum is 3x108 m/s, so 0.75c = 2.25x108 m/s.

And that's kinetic energy without relativity -- the Newtonian formula, KE = 0.5mv2, is only true in the limit as v-->0.  It incorrectly predicts that kinetic energy approaches infinity as velocity approaches infinity.  In reality, kinetic energy approaches infinity as the velocity approaches the speed of light.  (This is one argument for why surpassing the speed of light is impossible.)  At 0.75c, the correction required for relativity is fairly significant, as we'll see:

The relativistic formula for kinetic energy is
K = mc2/root(1-(v2/c2)) - mc2 = (γ-1)mc2,
where γ is just a shorthand for the square root nonsense, since it appears quite often in these kinds of formulas.

With a speed of 0.75c, γ is approximately 1.512.
With a mass of 21410 kg, this gives us a kinetic energy of 9.86x1020 joules, or very near one zettajoule.  :eek2:

Edit:  So really we're talking about 4695 Tsar Bomba's.  It still of course means that anything in the way won't be in the way for very long!  :beamz:
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 05:32:40 am by watsisname »
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.

a bus, fully loaded, weighs approximately 42700 imperial tons.





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Offline headdie

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.

a bus, fully loaded, weighs approximately 42700 imperial tons.





REaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllly?




the old London Routemaster was 7.35 long tons (7.47 t)

are kilograms being confused for tonnes?
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Offline Mars

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
Yeah. . . the bus you're talking about appears to weigh the same as 4 fully loaded US coal cars. I'd guess 7-15 tons maximum.

 

Offline watsisname

Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
An interesting but useless fact -- a 60kg human traveling at 27% of c would have the kinetic energy equivalent of the Tsar Bomba detonation. 
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Offline headdie

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
An interesting but useless fact -- a 60kg human traveling at 27% of c would have the kinetic energy equivalent of the Tsar Bomba detonation. 
**** YEAH

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Offline Kadaeux

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
An interesting but useless fact -- a 60kg human traveling at 27% of c would have the kinetic energy equivalent of the Tsar Bomba detonation. 
**** YEAH

Another interesting but useless fact. (Or perhaps it does have some use...)

Attempting to accelerate a human of any weight to 27% of c creates a mess that will cause your janitors to go on strike for the next ten years until they have a 45'000% payrise. ;)

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
And every man and his dog seemed to have the resources to do so in the Star Wars galaxy. (I mean hell, apparently in one of the novels the HUTTS built their own weird death-star thing.)

You must be talking about the Darksaber. It was indeed a project commissioned by the Hutts, and was pretty much a shoddy Chinese knockoff of the Death Star's main armament strapped to a rather unstable powersource. In no way did it have the defensive or tactical capabilities of either Death Star, or even a moderately-sized battlestation. To be frank, it was a piece of ****.

While superweapons seem to be a dime a dozen in the GFFA, they're generally confined to pan-galactic superpowers, rather than comparatively tiny crime syndicates.

I don't recall railguns being in Starwars

Mass drivers do exist in the Star Wars universe. While not exactly standard Imperial weaponry, the EU has shown a large number of railgun-type weapons at all scales. Ranging from the fragile, handheld Verpine Shatter Gun, to the mass driver cannons seen on Vengeance-class Frigates. The EU has an answer for everything. So it's not hard to imagine there would be scaled-up fixed orbit defenses with mass drivers, although I'd wager a Golan-class platform would be far more effective, given it's rather varied supply of armaments.

In fact, lasers probably explain why there aren't that many mass drivers in the Star Wars universe. For a society that seems to have discovered dozens of ways to generate cheap and plentiful energy, it is thus far more efficient to build a giant ****-off reactor and channel it into a giant ****-off energy cannon. That way, you don't have to worry about ammunition, nor recoil. Plus, if memory serves; the output of a single turbolaser turret reaches well into the gigatons of TNT equivalent. Why bother with a MAC platform when, as previously stated, you can just get yourself a Golan-style setup with a few dozen turbolasers to start with. Plus, considering the technology exists for planetary shields, singular platforms are hardly the only way to defend your world.

Relating to the original question, though: Yes, general technological level throughout the GFFA seems to be at a scale that would allow for any number of fantastical defensive options. Ignoring the requirement of a very solid industrial base as well as the technical expertise to build such a defensive array, I'm sure most planets would be able to throw up dozens of railgun platforms. Hell, they probably wouldn't even break a sweat. However, the fact remains that the person on the defensive is always at a disadvantage. This is magnified when trying to defend a target as big and as stationary as a planet. It would take an ungodly amount of platforms to make any serious defense against even a small fleet of mobile starships controlling everything past a high orbit. When you introduce ordinance like missiles that could dodge incoming fire, or the presence of fighters that could manually swoop in and annihilate any orbital infrastructure, there's not much a planet can do.

Plus, if a planet is giving you too much trouble, just blast the **** out of it. Or drop a few asteroids on it. A railgun platform isn't going to do squat to a rock the size of a small country hurtling towards a planet. Just keep annihilating parts of the planet until it either surrenders or there's nothing left to conquer. Hell, the threat of such action should be enough to prevent any world from rebelling. So sayeth the Tarkin Doctrine.


On a side note; I saw this rather interesting experimental art piece yesterday. Specifically, it was the left third of Star Wars, the middle third of Empire Strikes Back, and the right third of Return of the Jedi, on the same screen at the same time. Essentially, all three movies together, at once, in a 2 hour sitting, with the sound mix varying and overlapping between them. Quite the experience.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 08:57:00 am by Mefustae »

 

Offline esarai

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
Holy crap watsisname.  Thanks for the corrections. 

About the differing bus sizes, we don't have those double decker red things here.  My point of reference are these gargantuan machines that will carry ~125 people if you've played enough tetris and will smash sports cars into oblivion if they so much as side-swipe one.  But on that note the first mass estimate does seem ridiculous, now that I think about it.  A minivan is ~2 tons, so I'd have to imagine a bus weighing in somewhere between 20-25 tons. Still, someone's gonna be hurting.

Here's an interesting thought--instead of giant orbital guns, why not giant orbital missile batteries equipped with missiles that use SW hyperdrive technology to accelerate to C during terminal engagement?  There's no hiding from missiles, and you still get your insane payload delivery.  It'd be kinda like the RIM-161 Standard Missile 3, except on every steroid known to man.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 09:18:20 am by esarai »
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<Axem>   did anyone catch jesus' birth certificate?
<Nuclear>   and jesus didnt actually give the 5000 their fish...he gave it to the romans and let it trickle down
<Axem>and he was totally pro tax breaks
<Axem>he threw out all those tax collectors at the temple
<Nuclear>   he drove a V8 camel too
<Nuclear>   with a sword rack for his fully-automatic daggers

Esarai: hey gaiz, what's a good improvised, final attack for a ship fighting to buy others time to escape to use?
RangerKarl|AtWork: stick your penis in the warp core
DarthGeek: no don't do that
amki: don't EVER do that

 

Offline headdie

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
A subspace capable missile system would be interesting, 2 problems as I see it would be in the missile tracking it's real space target while in subspace, you might only have a small window after the invaders revert  from subspace to attack before they are able to jump out of the way if they detect a launch.  The second is the restrictions of gravity wells on subspace travel in the SW universe, your launch platforms would have to be outside of the too close region of the gravity well
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: A thought on Star Wars weaponry.
Here's an interesting thought--instead of giant orbital guns, why not giant orbital missile batteries equipped with missiles that use SW hyperdrive technology to accelerate to C during terminal engagement?  There's no hiding from missiles, and you still get your insane payload delivery.  It'd be kinda like the RIM-161 Standard Missile 3, except on every steroid known to man.

Firstly, hyperdrives don't work like that. Secondly, this is space we're talking about. Space is big. Light speed is ****ing pedestrian compared to the scale we're talking about. A projectile moving at relativistic speeds could still be dodged, considering that the light given off by the missile will precede it, and something moving close to the speed of light can't really be expected to maneuver to target.