Author Topic: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767  (Read 5299 times)

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Offline SirKnightly

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Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
Here is the nightly for Windows on 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767

Group: Inferno
fso-WIN-Inferno-20110920_r7767.7z
MD5Sum

Group: Inferno_SSE
fso-WIN-Inferno_SSE-20110920_r7767.7z
MD5Sum

Group: Inferno_SSE2
fso-WIN-Inferno_SSE2-20110920_r7767.7z
MD5Sum

Code: [Select]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
r7763 | The_E | 2011-09-19 10:53:11 -0500 (Mon, 19 Sep 2011) | 2 lines
Changed paths:
   M /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aiturret.cpp

Small fix for the logic here

------------------------------------------------------------------------
r7764 | The_E | 2011-09-19 13:01:56 -0500 (Mon, 19 Sep 2011) | 2 lines
Changed paths:
   M /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp

Move this check outside the for loop for better performance

------------------------------------------------------------------------
r7766 | IssMneur | 2011-09-19 21:47:39 -0500 (Mon, 19 Sep 2011) | 3 lines
Changed paths:
   M /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapons.cpp

- renamed +frequency to +period to reflect what the code actually does (as Valathil pointed out)
- +period: or +index: is no longer required for $substitute: (default is +index: 0)
- removed unnecessary check on +period: (1 is now a valid period)
------------------------------------------------------------------------



 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
Does that mean every time +frequency: is used, it now has to be changed to +period: ?
Or was the old parsing retained?

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
The old parsing was removed. I just checked the log.
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
Yay, now I only have to fix every weapon table entry that uses substitute.

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Offline chief1983

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
Hmm, was this a fairly recent feature though?  If this had been around a while that probably shouldn't have been done.
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
We've had substitute for a pretty good while now.
Thing is, I wouldn't have minded it if there was a heads up about this. Instead I'm greeted by a whole bunch of error messages on start up with the latest nightly
Some communication between the coders and modders should at least be possible... right?
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Offline CaptJosh

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
I personally would think it should be possible. OTOH, they could put a huge announcement up that "Hey, we're changing this feature and removing the old way of parsing things" and still have some folks go, "When did that happen?" a few weeks later because they ignored it.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
its a risk you run when you use cutting edge features in your mod. so long as its a feature that has not been in an official build, it is subject to change. that said its only a string replace operation in your text editor to fix your mods.
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Offline Iss Mneur

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
The change log contains the following line:
Code: [Select]
- renamed +frequency to +period to reflect what the code actually does (as Valathil pointed out)

Nowhere do I say that I retained compatibility. 

If there is a mod that is released that is using with $substitute: I can put the compatibility parsing in.  If someone whines loud enough I may put it back as well, but fundamentally, the problem is, if I leave the +frequency: parsing in then we may subtly break a mod sometime in the future because someone adds an actual +frequency: option. So instead I went with the nosily break it now so it is cannot become an issue in the future.

Of course, you could also just blame Valathil.  :drevil: Until he pointed out that +frequency was actually a +period, it hadn't even crossed my mind that I had the wrong noun.
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Offline Echelon9

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
It's an unfortunate table change to fix up, but Iss Mneur is right.

For features that are added in nightlies in-between official releases every new feature should be considered subject to change and revision. I don't think the SCP has said anywhere that we retain non-depreciation of features between releases.

Once it's in a final release though I'm sure we'd be more hesitant to make these sort of changes.

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
Again, I don't think that a simple thread with "Heads up for mods using *feature name*, we're likely going to change *this* and *that* in the nearby future. You have here by been informed" is too much too ask. I'm not asking for retained compatibility or anything, as things like these are just changes in the table, its not a huge deal. And I'm duly aware that features in nightlies are not final. It's just the lack of communication between the coders and modders that irks me at times.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 07:29:03 am by Spoon »
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
Indeed.
I noticed that modders found quite a few interesting things out only because somebody (usually I :)) was curious about the changelog in the latest nightly.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
I don't want to seem like I'm picking sides here... but the changelog has always been enough notice for me. I read it every time I download a new nightly. I'm somewhat of the opinion that the changelog is communication enough. Maybe add a bold/colorized warning in the nightly post.. but that would then just be there for someone who doesn't read the changelog.

All in all, I'm trying to respectfully say, that reading the changelog should be plenty of communication about these matters.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
I don't want to seem like I'm picking sides here... but the changelog has always been enough notice for me. I read it every time I download a new nightly. I'm somewhat of the opinion that the changelog is communication enough. Maybe add a bold/colorized warning in the nightly post.. but that would then just be there for someone who doesn't read the changelog.

All in all, I'm trying to respectfully say, that reading the changelog should be plenty of communication about these matters.

Well, unless I'm missing something, the only place to get the complete changelog would be checking the svn logs unless you want to check every single nightly thread. It's not very convenient if you're just a modder who doesn't care about the internals of the engine and doesn't want to sift through dozens of log entries per week to see if there's something in there you should take note of.

It would be very handy if there was a separate log/thread/whatever which would contain a list of all changes which modders need to know about (that is, those which break compatibility in some way, such as the +frequency->+period change). Could be as simple as links to the relevant svn revisions.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
its really hard to get informed about most features because coders can implement em faster than modders can learn how to use em. i was on top of almost every feature in the game till about 2006 when there were just too many of them to keep track of (part of that was due to scripting, and while i was learning lua a bunch of other features came into being that had completely alluded me). modding at the cutting edge has its drawbacks though, your constantly changing things as the features mature. you can easily loose modding time to this kinda stuff. its just part of being on the bleeding edge. these days i find a new surprise almost every time i look at the wiki.

thats why i have a ton of scripts that just dont work anymore, as wmc was still hammering out a consistent paradigm for the system, i was scripting to see what it could do, so when things were drastically altered i figured it was for the better good, and patched what code i could and rewrote the rest, and some work was lost, but im sure my feedback at the time was valuable. so theres nothing wrong with modding on the bleeding edge, its how most of the testing is done. you may loose some work every now and then but when you think about it both engine and mods gain from this kind of stuff.


 
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
Actually, that's exactly what I do. I got in the habit of reading the changelog every time a new nightly is posted. I do this even if I don't download the nightly. Really, there's not that many nightly releases that should make it difficult. Just start now and keep it up. Make it part of your forum reading routine.

I will concede that the changelog often doesn't contain enough information about some things. But that's easily changed by simply asking any commits to try and be a little more clear. I have seen some that say things like "This breaks parsing, reverting" which leave my wondering what is "this".

But I don't need the coders need to be responsible for yet another thread and sifting through which changes are important enough to go in it. I'd rather the coders spend their time coding. Besides, I know there are some coders that forget to even put their features on the Wiki. Should they add another spot for them to remember to change?

In the end, it's not my decision anyway.

EDIT: Actually reading over the thread again.. it seems people were originally upset about the change that was made and it got turned into a discussion about communication. I can't help but notice that the issue was discovered because of a "communication" thread... To me, it really seems like this can be a civil discussion about keeping the old parsing or not rather than this generic discussion about communication between coders and modders.
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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
There's also the online log, so you have a place to catch up on all the commits you want between nightlies instead of having to read each thread.
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Offline headdie

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
There's also the online log, so you have a place to catch up on all the commits you want between nightlies instead of having to read each thread.

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Offline CommanderDJ

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
There's also the online log, so you have a place to catch up on all the commits you want between nightlies instead of having to read each thread.

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Re: Nightly (Windows): 20 Sep 2011 - Revision 7767
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