[Turambar]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/24/world/palestinians-submit-statehood-bid-at-un.html

UNITED NATIONS —President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority formally requested the Security Council to grant full United Nations membership on Friday as a path toward Palestinian statehood, rejecting arguments by the United States and Israel that it was not a substitute for direct negotiations for peace in the Middle East.

My opinion is that this is a good move.

[Bobboau]

so this means that when rockets are launched from Gaza now it will result in a formal declaration of war between two nations?

[MP-Ryan]

While I think that recognition of a Palestinian state is the ultimate goal, I do see one gigantic, glaring, massive problem with recognition of a true Palestinian state:

Palestine is full of factions and lacks central control over its own populace, many members of which have shown little hesitation in flinging rockets at Israeli cities.

Now, if a central Palestinian government could be relied on to control its citizenry and quit the attacks on their neighbours, then I'd be all for this.  The 1967 borders are a good starting point for discussions on state boundaries, and its time that Israel accepted that part of the solution to its security concerns is the actual creation of a Palestinian state.  BUT.  At the same time, the biggest hiccup in the peace process in general has been recognition of the legitimacy of the state of Israel and guarantees of border security.

The trouble with a Palestinian state basically declared by the UN is that it is not contingent on good behaviour - and were the US not to veto it in the SC, the next time rockets come flying into Israel from next door it won't be considered a localized attack in an unstable and fairly borderless region - it'll be an act of war by one sovereign nation upon another.  Part of statehood is the responsibility to ensure rogue elements in your nation do not attack others; Palestinian government is incapable of enforcing that guarantee.

To play out the scenario somewhat further, if Israel takes defensive military action in response to rockets against the newly-recognized Palestinian (Arab) state, just how long do you think it will take newly-unstable Egypt, Syria, and Iran to mobilize their militaries in response?  Even fairly-peaceful Jordan might be up in arms.

Palestinian statehood, without security guarantees curbing the extremists living there, gives rogue Arab states the best excuse they've had in four decades to launch offensive military operations against Israel.  And don't kid yourself, that is exactly why the US will exercise their security council veto - which is quite unfortunate.  If the Palestinian Authority (in particular) could guarantee the arrest and prosecution of those who would ignite war, this discussion would have an entirely different tone.

[Bobboau]

/*what I said in more words*/

yeah

[MP-Ryan]

/*what I said in more words*/

yeah

Sorry, I only saw your comment as I hit post

[Turambar]

Still, negotiations were going absolutely nowhere.  Big picture, it looked to me like Israel was going to stall talks and keep building illegal 'settlements' as long as possible.  Time is not on Palestine's side here.

[Scotty]

Then they better get to it, no?

[MP-Ryan]

Still, negotiations were going absolutely nowhere.  Big picture, it looked to me like Israel was going to stall talks and keep building illegal 'settlements' as long as possible.  Time is not on Palestine's side here.

True, but the fundamental obstacle here is security - the PA runs West Bank and can't control their populace fully; Hamas, whose stated goals include the destruction of Israel, is calling the shots in Gaza.  The threat to Israel is very real.

Personally, I think the best solution is for the security council to adopt a resolution that Palestinian statehood will be fully recognized either based on negotiated terms, or using the 1967 borders provided that proposed Palestine provides meaningful security guarantees for its neighbors and the region as a whole, including disarmament of all non-governmental organizations and the ordinary citizenry.  It gives the Palestinians a carrot to work on their internal security and quit attacking Israel, and its gives the Israeli government a stick to quit ****ing building settlements and accept that reasonable world opinion sees 1967 as a good starting point for negotiation.

[Bobboau]

give them statehood when one year has passed seance the last Palestinian has attempted to attack an Israeli.

[NGTM-1R]

Still, negotiations were going absolutely nowhere.  Big picture, it looked to me like Israel was going to stall talks and keep building illegal 'settlements' as long as possible.  Time is not on Palestine's side here.

Negotiations exist to defuse tensions. This act does not do that; entirely the opposite.

[Turambar]

These negotiations existed to distract everyone while Israel stole Palestine's country out from under them. 

[BrotherBryon]

To be perfectly honest I can't see how the creation of a Palestinian state is even conceivable right now under the current conditions. Not saying it can't be done but the terms both sides want just to get started are unreasonable to expect after such a long period of mutual enmity. Want to stop illegal settlement construction, make the establishment of borders the first item to be negotiated in the peace process and don't be inflexible over the terms. A lot has happened in the decades these lands have been disputed so one cannot simply expect to get back to what it was decades ago. At the same time Israel must approach the border negotiations fairly; yes security is important but you can only take that argument so far. Oh and while we are at it; it is next to impossible to establish infrastructure and security for multiple territories physically divided by another sovereign state with opposing political ideologies. A good first step would be to start with the West Bank and forget about including Hamas and Gaza for the time being. If the West Bank is successful at establishing their own state without getting into a pissing match with Israel, Gaza may in time throw off Hamas and seek terms of their own. This whole thing really needs to be approached in stages if it is to have any chances of success at this point.

[karajorma]

give them statehood when one year has passed seance the last Palestinian has attempted to attack an Israeli.

That would be pretty ridiculous.

Give them statehood one year after the last Palestinian has tried to attack Israel and the government has done nothing.

[NGTM-1R]

These negotiations existed to distract everyone while Israel stole Palestine's country out from under them.

Sort of like how they stole it out from under the Crusaders who stole it out from under the Arabs who stole it out from under the Romans who stole it out from under the Jews.

So, y'know, nothing to see here, move along.

[Hades]

These negotiations existed to distract everyone while Israel stole Palestine's country out from under them.

Sort of like how they stole it out from under the Crusaders who stole it out from under the Arabs who stole it out from under the Romans who stole it out from under the Jews.

So, y'know, nothing to see here, move along.

That doesn't make it right or legitimate, bro. Just means people let history repeat itself.

[Kosh]

These negotiations existed to distract everyone while Israel stole Palestine's country out from under them.

Sort of like how they stole it out from under the Crusaders who stole it out from under the Arabs who stole it out from under the Romans who stole it out from under the Jews.

So, y'know, nothing to see here, move along.

Don't forget about the Egyptians, Persians, and Turks!

[Mongoose]

And the Canaanites while we're at it!

[Nemesis6]

Part of statehood is the responsibility to ensure rogue elements in your nation do not attack others; Palestinian government is incapable of enforcing that guarantee.

Not only that, the PLO itself is involved in such attacks, Fatah maintaining several militias and terrorist groups including the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. It's also important to note how the various Palestinian security forces are padded by members of these groups. In light of that, it's not that surprising that the Israeli soldiers faced Palestinian police forces when the second intifada broke out.

[Bobboau]

Israel should have just kicked them out when they first annexed the territory.

[Turambar]

Israel should have just kicked them out when they first annexed the territory.

Israel should have never annexed the territory. 

If i were running Palestine, and i got the 1967 borders, i wouldnt kick the 'settlers' out.  I'd let them stay, as long as they operated under and paid taxes to the Palestinian government.  Either they'd live in peace (unlikely) or they'd make the case for their removal to their own stolen country.

I don't mind most of the population of Israel, they seem like regular ordinary people.  The 'settlers' seem like belligerent assholes, and they deserve whatever is coming their way.