Author Topic: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy  (Read 7467 times)

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Offline FlamingCobra

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The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
One of the biggest things that is ruining the US economy is outsourcing. However, I don't think there is anything we can do to bring manufacturing jobs back.

Politicians even PUSH for a service economy. That's crazy!

A country cannot prosper unless it makes goods to export to other nations. Exchanging services within our own country just won't cut it! You don't GAIN anything that way.

Just about the only thing the US makes now is food. Most of that goes to fatass Americans, a large percentage of which have.................................................




DIABEETUS




Pretty much the rest of the food we produce is given away to starving Africans. And no, I do not feel sorry for them. It's not my fault if they try to farm the desert and consequently magnify the damage caused by erosion. It's not my fault if they are constantly at war with each other. And it's not my fault if they don't industrialize to produce goods and services so they can generate some cashflow with which they can purchase food.




Anyway, I seem to have gotten off on a tangent. BACK ON TOPIC.

Another problem is that Americans -- yes, I do realize that "American" is not a synonym for "a citizen of the United States" because the United States is not the only country in North America, but I'm going to use it anyway -- don't want manufacturing jobs anymore. In fact, a lot of Americans don't want jobs at all! They'd rather draw unemployment for as long as possible.

I believe this has something to do with our educational system. It must be flawed. Our educational system probably encourages students to go to college a little too much.

I remember last year when the German exchange students arrived they told us that in Germany, students are separated into the ones that will and the ones that will not go to a college/university by the end of......................... what...................... elementary school? Or was it middle school?

.............................................................. ..............

I think it was elementary school.


....................... Anyway, as bad as that sounds, it's probably a better system overall. It makes things easier on everybody. Some people are naturally better at some things than others. And some people are naturally smarter than other people. I know that's harsh, but that's reality.

It's kind of like year-round school. I used to think that year-round school would be the most horrible injustice society could ever put on children but now I believe it would be better than the system we have now; Go 180 days and then get a long summer break.


I'd rather have shorter but more frequent breaks.









ANYWAY, back on topic.

The main question is, what can a country do to improve this horrible economic situation?

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
Quote
Pretty much the rest of the food we produce is given away to starving Africans. And no, I do not feel sorry for them. It's not my fault if they try to farm the desert and consequently magnify the damage caused by erosion. It's not my fault if they are constantly at war with each other. And it's not my fault if they don't industrialize to produce goods and services so they can generate some cashflow with which they can purchase food.
This may be the dumbest thing I've ever seen anyone say in here.

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
Despite the generally ignorant prompt for this topic, it's still a valid topic.

...In the sense that if we observe the current free enterprise and governmental economic policies of the United States, a problem is not difficult to detect. As a disclaimer, allow me to state that I am no expert, and the following observations are nominally quite general in nature.

As the Cobra of Flaming posts suggests, loss of a manufacturing base is a critical flaw in the industrial economic construct of the US. This will continue to deteriorate as governmental policies do not effectively levy terrifs and implement regulations on US-based industries that manage operations outside (as well as inside) of the country. To harp on old news, General Electric not paying their taxes is a good example of the shortcomings in the current system.

Hence, a better topic - Simple problem: bad policies leading to bad industrial process (with respect to the US). Difficult solution: How to fix simple problem...
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Offline Sushi

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
Do you have anything at all to back up your premise that "The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy?"

 

Offline Mars

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
Do you have anything at all to back up your premise that "The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy?"

That's hardly the biggest problem with the post.

Despite the generally ignorant prompt for this topic, it's still a valid topic.

...In the sense that if we observe the current free enterprise and governmental economic policies of the United States, a problem is not difficult to detect. As a disclaimer, allow me to state that I am no expert, and the following observations are nominally quite general in nature.

As the Cobra of Flaming posts suggests, loss of a manufacturing base is a critical flaw in the industrial economic construct of the US. This will continue to deteriorate as governmental policies do not effectively levy terrifs and implement regulations on US-based industries that manage operations outside (as well as inside) of the country. To harp on old news, General Electric not paying their taxes is a good example of the shortcomings in the current system.

Hence, a better topic - Simple problem: bad policies leading to bad industrial process (with respect to the US). Difficult solution: How to fix simple problem...

I read somewhere that tariffs and "isolationist economics" can be really damaging, does anyone know how, exactly? I'm quite curious.

 

Offline JGZinv

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
Well add to the bad policies, we have companies that basically buy their way into the political process and push for whatever.
This is a very large reason we are so stunted in the broadband deployment area compared to many other developed countries, and
have the highest rates.

The other problem is we have a giant problem in the Social Security and Medicare amounts going out, the majority of our expenditure is
just that. We're propping up 1 to 2 generations of people in a constantly more expensive economy.

The jobs problem I have spoken about before, it's a mix of several issues. 
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=78087.msg1544518#msg1544518

Now in addition to the elderly, disabled, we're giving out tons of incentives for other people to live here and send their freely given aid home.
From what I hear, most of the major college students are coming in from India or China, getting their education, then taking it back home saying
there's more opportunity there.

Couple this with a patent, trademark, DMCA, and a bunch of other laws that have been poorly written for the digital age, and we're stifling ourselves.
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
A tarrif will be a damaging entity to a company because it requires them to pay for an action they undertake. And it will always be damaging at some level, becuase it will cut into their profits. Less profit means less R&D, and reduces the potential for technical achievement in a product. It reduces the number of employees they can hire and still be profitable, etc.

A company might move outside the bounds of the US for a matter of reasons: Environmental concerns with respect to manufacturing, employee wages, taxes, etc. Companies like to outsource employees beacuse the standard of living is higher in the US, and inflation means that the apparent cost of living will continue to rise. It's thus easy to understand why all your tech support people always seem to speak English as a second language.

However, this is exactly why tarrifs are needed: if a US-based company can't get that monetary advantage from conducting overseas operations anymore because they have a trade tax to deal with, they ought to consider moving back to their country of origin. THEN, you'll see the manufacturing and technician level jobs come back. This should also boost the service industry, which was noted in the initial post.

The downside is that a company never wants to cut into their profit margin, so they'll make YOU pay for the difference. You might then wonder how US companies can compete with overseas industry, with the price of their product being lower due to that nation's standard of living or reduced industrial standards of practice. Again, placing an import tarrif on foreign goods could close that gap in an ideal situation.

I'm not in favor of immensely powerful gvernment, but in this instance I feel it's a case of the government needing to regulate one of the things any government has ALWAYS needed to monitor and regulate, which is the economy. This involves bullying the major players in the economy (large corporations) into making sure the US is a viable industrial export center, and remains so.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline Qent

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
The main question is, what can a country do to improve this horrible economic situation?
I apologize that this is not directly related to the above replies, but:

Build nuclear power plants. Lots and lots of them. Education should be directed towards that.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
One of the biggest things that is ruining the US economy is outsourcing. However, I don't think there is anything we can do to bring manufacturing jobs back.

Politicians even PUSH for a service economy. That's crazy!

Ok. I'll bite.

Quote
A country cannot prosper unless it makes goods to export to other nations. Exchanging services within our own country just won't cut it! You don't GAIN anything that way.

This is a pretty bold assertion. I'll respond to this when you provide reasonable evidence that service based economies cannot bring prosperity, or failing that perhaps a reasonable argument.

Quote
Just about the only thing the US makes now is food. Most of that goes to fatass Americans, a large percentage of which have.................................................

Most food (well, corn at least) produced here in the US is inedible for humans and is either used as feed for animals or turned into things that aren't food in and of itself. Though it is true that we do make a lot of delicious and edible food, that I agree.

Quote
DIABEETUS

Pretty much the rest of the food we produce is given away to starving Africans. And no, I do not feel sorry for them. It's not my fault if they try to farm the desert and consequently magnify the damage caused by erosion. It's not my fault if they are constantly at war with each other. And it's not my fault if they don't industrialize to produce goods and services so they can generate some cashflow with which they can purchase food.

Anyway, I seem to have gotten off on a tangent. BACK ON TOPIC.

You have no sympathy for people starving in Africa but you feel fine complaining about a recession in the US? Get the **** out. I've got nothing more to say here.

Quote
Another problem is that Americans -- yes, I do realize that "American" is not a synonym for "a citizen of the United States" because the United States is not the only country in North America, but I'm going to use it anyway -- don't want manufacturing jobs anymore. In fact, a lot of Americans don't want jobs at all! They'd rather draw unemployment for as long as possible.

I believe this has something to do with our educational system. It must be flawed. Our educational system probably encourages students to go to college a little too much.

I remember last year when the German exchange students arrived they told us that in Germany, students are separated into the ones that will and the ones that will not go to a college/university by the end of......................... what...................... elementary school? Or was it middle school?

.............................................................. ..............

I think it was elementary school.


....................... Anyway, as bad as that sounds, it's probably a better system overall. It makes things easier on everybody. Some people are naturally better at some things than others. And some people are naturally smarter than other people. I know that's harsh, but that's reality.

It's kind of like year-round school. I used to think that year-round school would be the most horrible injustice society could ever put on children but now I believe it would be better than the system we have now; Go 180 days and then get a long summer break.


I'd rather have shorter but more frequent breaks.









ANYWAY, back on topic.

The main question is, what can a country do to improve this horrible economic situation?

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
You guys do realize that he's using you all for essay fodder, right?  :P

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
getting us companies to pay taxes is one thing. it is a problem. the government really needs to lower them. i mean even if we halved what they are, other countries would still have better tax rates. so while cutting them in half also make it harder for them to evade, and you will likely get more money out of them than you do now. but thats just a tiny slice of the problem. we should really crack down on multinational corporations and close all the loopholes that let them cheat their taxes.

we do need to bring back manufacturing jobs. there is a lot of demand for made in america products right now. sometimes you pay more and sometimes you dont. but i find products made in america to be of much greater quality to products made in china for example. cheap low quality products from overseas have turned us into a throwaway society. having the factory overseas disconnects it from the customer base and there is no accountability for poor quality and its easier to cheat the consumer with impunity. theres a lot of reluctance to meet local standards, where here not meeting standards is corporate suicide.

we need to do our own dirty work. we need to stop outsourcing jobs that are within the typical american skill set. it might save money but it reduced local income and thus local spending. outsourcing has got to go. especially in the support industry, americans should receive support from americans, not foreigners who are in a different boat entirely.

jobs need to pay better wages. no disposable income means we dont buy stuff, we dont buy stuff then nobody here turns a profit. the reason people live off the government is because it pays better than minimum wage. an actual 40 hour a week minimum wage job should be a big step up from living off assistance programs, not a tiny one, and certainly not a step down.
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Offline The E

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
You guys do realize that he's using you all for essay fodder, right?  :P

Well, those will be some pretty interesting essays, given the level of ignorance generally exhibited by our high-temperature snake here...
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I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Nuke

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
You guys do realize that he's using you all for essay fodder, right?  :P

its ok, when his teech googles his essay and founds he just copied our replies, he will get an f. lol
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
getting us companies to pay taxes is one thing. it is a problem. the government really needs to lower them. i mean even if we halved what they are, other countries would still have better tax rates. so while cutting them in half also make it harder for them to evade, and you will likely get more money out of them than you do now. but thats just a tiny slice of the problem. we should really crack down on multinational corporations and close all the loopholes that let them cheat their taxes.

Bwaaaa???? How would lowering tax rates make it any harder to evade taxes?

P.S. The IRS is underfunded enough as it is

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
Not harder, but less people would want to do it. I think that's what he meant.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
see we do 2 things, we crack down on companies using multinational status to cheat the irs, then we lower their tax rates. if both these things happen, we would get more money out of the businesses. really our buisness tax rates are insanely high, its no wonder they go to extremes (like posing as a multinational) to dodge the taxes. its like saying, ok were lowering the taxes, but you assholes better ****ing pay them. we could just crack down and keep the rates where they are, but that would break so many companies that they would no longer be a useful source of tax revenue.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
one half of that would get through congress and stick, can you guess which half?
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
One of the biggest things that is ruining the US economy is outsourcing. However, I don't think there is anything we can do to bring manufacturing jobs back.

Politicians even PUSH for a service economy. That's crazy!

Ok. I'll bite.

Quote
A country cannot prosper unless it makes goods to export to other nations. Exchanging services within our own country just won't cut it! You don't GAIN anything that way.
This is a pretty bold assertion. I'll respond to this when you provide reasonable evidence that service based economies cannot bring prosperity, or failing that perhaps a reasonable argument.

A service-based economy logically benefits a society internally. When managed properly, a service provider should be in a state of economic equilibrium in the society in which it is based. Thus, workers are given a wage, and consumers are given a product, and the system sustains itself. What a service DOES NOT do (in most cases) is benefit a society externally. That is, the percentage of foreign currency which flows into the nation to boost revenues is assumably quite low for say, the medical field, in relation to heavy industry. And when you have an economy which imports more than it exports... Well, I think the problem in citing movement towards a service-based economy becomes worth considering.

Now, at some level, the service industry and heavy industry are linked. Even the heavy industrial sector relies on service-based elements to sell a product. The problem is that when heavy industry is outsourced, you not only slice a good margin of your workforce out of a job, but you also allow that company to divert its expenditures (and taxible revenues) outside of your internal economy. Now, the service industry suffers because they cannot sell a product to a consumer base that cannot afford those products, because they do not have a job!

Finally, if the service industry, in theory, supported itself, its employees, and its customers, consider the concepts above... The heavy manufacturing base reduces its presence in the nation at a high percentage, cutting down on internally traded goods, services, and raw materials (which are also goods), resulting in a net loss to the economic system. Furthermore, those goods are now imported, along with other imports coming into the nation. This also results in an outflow from the system. And then, because heavy industry is reduced, the gain from exports does not equal that of the loss from imports! If a simple model of this system was made, it might look like this:

[Summation of economic gain/loss] = (stable service economy) - (industrial outflow) - (imports) + (exports < (outflow + imports)) = [Economic loss]

Note again, that the service economy is an internal economic element, with no gains or losses (in our assumption). If our conomy was local only, it would be just fine. But in a global economy, is it even worth considering at such an important weight? If it's in a state of equilibrium, we might as well call it equal to zero. All that remains after that is a net loss. That system is doomed to fail.

Now, again, I'm no economist, and all my assumptions are from general things I've learned or heard of. If I'm wrong, or I could refine my view of things, please, do interject here and let us all learn something...
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 07:17:14 pm by Thaeris »
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
one half of that would get through congress and stick, can you guess which half?

yes, the one that makes the least sense by itself.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 08:21:26 pm by Nuke »
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline SypheDMar

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Re: The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy
Just about the only thing the US makes now is food. Most of that goes to fatass Americans, a large percentage of which have.................................................




DIABEETUS
Screw off you ignorant retard.


Quote
Pretty much the rest of the food we produce is given away to starving Africans. And no, I do not feel sorry for them. It's not my fault if they try to farm the desert and consequently magnify the damage caused by erosion. It's not my fault if they are constantly at war with each other. And it's not my fault if they don't industrialize to produce goods and services so they can generate some cashflow with which they can purchase food.
Are you saying all this to feel less guilty about not giving money to the homeless? By the way, Asia has the largest number of starving kids. Douchebag.