[MP-Ryan]

*munches popcorn*

I'll chime in if anyone misses something in the verbal factual thrashing that FlamingCobra is so deservedly getting.  Seems pretty comprehensive so far.

Though I will say, the main reason the US is so economically ****ed is because the taxation and financial regulatory systems (i.e. regulation of banks and markets) have been routinely ass****ed for ideological purposes (mostly by the Republicans over the last 30 years).  And the reason you can't fix that at the moment is because the Tea Party is busy face****ing every level of government at their whim.

[jr2]

[offtopic]

I just thought the ad displayed while on this page was funny:



[/offtopic]

[TwentyPercentCooler]

Oh christ, where do we even start on this one?

We've allowed the large corporations to run roughshod over rules and regulations for too long. They ignore standards to save money, dodge taxes to save money, push through ridiculous legislation to save money (by using a portion of the money they save to fatten political donations and campaign contributions) like arguing that food service workers could be paid almost nothing and introducing the plague of tipping to guilt customers into making up the difference. They've ignored investing in our infrastructure and it's fallen into a disgusting state of decay. They shipped our jobs overseas so they can ignore quality control and pay lower wages, and now they're acting surprised that the middle class in the U.S. is disappearing rapidly and discontent among the people that have been getting screwed for years is reaching critical mass. Banks lent money with reckless abandon, hastened the collapse of the housing bubble, took record bailouts with open hands, and are now proceeding to profit from the smouldering ashes of the system by selling junk debt and ratcheting up inane fees for their hapless customers.

The next couple of years are going to be very interesting, to say the least.

[Nuke]

nothing a few nukes wont fix.

[TwentyPercentCooler]

nothing a few nukes wont fix.

You would say that.

Technically, it's true - as long as we put all the corrupt CEOs of most multinational, multi-billion dollar companies and most of our current idiot politicians on a boat and nuke it, Able- and Baker-shot style.

[Nuke]

what do i care if i take entire cities out with them, i mean i can live off the grid and eat things i shoot in the woods so im not dependent on any form of civilization whatsoever.

[TwentyPercentCooler]

We could use a little population control, but it's okay. Nature will take of it eventually, anyway. Two words: aerosolized Ebola.

[deathfun]

How do we solve the homeless problem?
Involuntary euthanization

(kudos to those who get the reference)

[Nuke]

How do we solve the homeless problem?
Involuntary euthanization

(kudos to those who get the reference)

nuke them

[Al-Rik]

I believe this has something to do with our educational system. It must be flawed. Our educational system probably encourages students to go to college a little too much.

I remember last year when the German exchange students arrived they told us that in Germany, students are separated into the ones that will and the ones that will not go to a college/university by the end of elementary school ?
Anyway, as bad as that sounds, it's probably a better system overall. It makes things easier on everybody. Some people are naturally better at some things than others. And some people are naturally smarter than other people. I know that's harsh, but that's reality.

The main question is, what can a country do to improve this horrible economic situation?

Hm, your exchange student didn't tell you much about Germany...


Yes, in Germany the future academics are separated from the future workers at the age of ten.
But in fact, we have also to much college students, and most of the college students are studying something that isn't related to manufacturing, hard science or engineering.

Almost all popular colleges are overcrowded... and particular popular studies like sociology, politics,  germanistics and "anything about media" are very overcrowded.
And because of the many graduates in those studies most graduates don't get a well paid job - only a lot of lousy or even unpaid internships.
But that's no reason to not study those sciences, because after graduation you may not have a job, but you are still a academic - a part of the Educated German Elite.

Studies like engineering, chemistry or mathematics are less popular, and a lot of students left after the first semesters because it's to complex for them.

So the German college isn't the only reason for the strong manufacturing sector in Germany.
An other strong factor are the workers, or to be more precise the system of professional education.

Most workers start at the age of 16 an apprenticeship in a company, which last two to three years.
Usually a apprentice spends 3 days in the company and has training on the job, and 2 days in a state founded school for the more theoretical aspects of his trade, like mechanics, mathematics, construction.
At the end of the apprenticeship there are exams by the state and by the trade group.
It's not uncommon for the best apprentices to attend later to college or get further professional education in their trade (at least two years full time school for a degree as state certificated technician or as  master craftsman, but in most cases 4 years part time in the evening and the weekends ) and becoming manager of a department at the age of 25.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprentice#Germany
 
It's impossible to run a manufacturing plant only with academics, especially in sectors like chemistry or automated plants.
You need electricians, mechanics, hell even plumbers (nowadays even the plumber is half an electrician) to keep your manufacturing line running. You need them 24 hours, 7 days a week.
If you in charge of a 3 million dollar manufacturing line for PBCs and it stands still because a stupid 30 dollar valve is blocked you learn the value of high skilled worker.

At the moment I'm working in a company that sells chemistry world wide. And according to our salespeople the biggest problem in country's like China or Indonesia is the lack of skilled workers.
There is a hard competition for those guys, and it's not uncommon to get them from the competitor by offering more wage.
So it's not only the college education that's important for a strong manufacturing sector.

And IMHO the USA has still a strong manufacturing sector.
Agriculture is strong, also aircraft construction, military equipment, and if you want you can even count Hollywood and the rest of the media industry to the manufacturing sector.

What is gone is the cheap manufacturing sector for shoes, clothing or simple montage work in the electronic industry. But those sectors are also gone in Western Europe.
All those jobs went first to Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia and after the fall of the iron curtain to the Eastern European Country's, and later to China or Egypt and Morocco.

[FlamingCobra]

What if we **** over Big Oil and ramp up R&D of renewable energy and then when fossil fuels and petroleum run out, we sell energy to other countries?

[MP-Ryan]

What if we **** over Big Oil and ramp up R&D of renewable energy and then when fossil fuels and petroleum run out, we sell energy to other countries?

Oil in the US is small potatoes.  Canada alone has over 700 billion barrels (that's with a "B") of untapped oil that we (1) know about and (2) can readily extract.

Don't expect renewables to give major dividends for several decades yet.

[FlamingCobra]

SBSP?


Also, I had civics & economics last year, so, no, I am not using you guys to write an essay.

[Nuke]

I believe this has something to do with our educational system. It must be flawed. Our educational system probably encourages students to go to college a little too much.

I remember last year when the German exchange students arrived they told us that in Germany, students are separated into the ones that will and the ones that will not go to a college/university by the end of elementary school ?
Anyway, as bad as that sounds, it's probably a better system overall. It makes things easier on everybody. Some people are naturally better at some things than others. And some people are naturally smarter than other people. I know that's harsh, but that's reality.

The main question is, what can a country do to improve this horrible economic situation?

Hm, your exchange student didn't tell you much about Germany...


Yes, in Germany the future academics are separated from the future workers at the age of ten.
But in fact, we have also to much college students, and most of the college students are studying something that isn't related to manufacturing, hard science or engineering.

Almost all popular colleges are overcrowded... and particular popular studies like sociology, politics,  germanistics and "anything about media" are very overcrowded.
And because of the many graduates in those studies most graduates don't get a well paid job - only a lot of lousy or even unpaid internships.
But that's no reason to not study those sciences, because after graduation you may not have a job, but you are still a academic - a part of the Educated German Elite.

Studies like engineering, chemistry or mathematics are less popular, and a lot of students left after the first semesters because it's to complex for them.

So the German college isn't the only reason for the strong manufacturing sector in Germany.
An other strong factor are the workers, or to be more precise the system of professional education.

Most workers start at the age of 16 an apprenticeship in a company, which last two to three years.
Usually a apprentice spends 3 days in the company and has training on the job, and 2 days in a state founded school for the more theoretical aspects of his trade, like mechanics, mathematics, construction.
At the end of the apprenticeship there are exams by the state and by the trade group.
It's not uncommon for the best apprentices to attend later to college or get further professional education in their trade (at least two years full time school for a degree as state certificated technician or as  master craftsman, but in most cases 4 years part time in the evening and the weekends ) and becoming manager of a department at the age of 25.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprentice#Germany
 
It's impossible to run a manufacturing plant only with academics, especially in sectors like chemistry or automated plants.
You need electricians, mechanics, hell even plumbers (nowadays even the plumber is half an electrician) to keep your manufacturing line running. You need them 24 hours, 7 days a week.
If you in charge of a 3 million dollar manufacturing line for PBCs and it stands still because a stupid 30 dollar valve is blocked you learn the value of high skilled worker.

At the moment I'm working in a company that sells chemistry world wide. And according to our salespeople the biggest problem in country's like China or Indonesia is the lack of skilled workers.
There is a hard competition for those guys, and it's not uncommon to get them from the competitor by offering more wage.
So it's not only the college education that's important for a strong manufacturing sector.

And IMHO the USA has still a strong manufacturing sector.
Agriculture is strong, also aircraft construction, military equipment, and if you want you can even count Hollywood and the rest of the media industry to the manufacturing sector.

What is gone is the cheap manufacturing sector for shoes, clothing or simple montage work in the electronic industry. But those sectors are also gone in Western Europe.
All those jobs went first to Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia and after the fall of the iron curtain to the Eastern European Country's, and later to China or Egypt and Morocco.

usa really needs to bring back apprenticeships. primary education likes to keep you isolated from the real world. our education is so damn generic that dont learn what will be expected of them from the job market. secondary education is just as bad, and we also have these god damned diploma mills providing shoddy classes and giving degrees to people who shouldn't need them. then turn out students who are not half as qualified as those who get real degrees from an actual university and causes actual degrees to become somewhat devalued while at the same time flooding the job market with sub-par employees. apprenticeships are certainly a more sane way to deal with integrating graduates (of any level of education) into the work force instead of saying "here is your degree, now go get a job you damned dirty hippy!" we just kinda throw all the graduates into a pool of sharks and expect them to succeed.

[Al-Rik]

What if we **** over Big Oil and ramp up R&D of renewable energy and then when fossil fuels and petroleum run out, we sell energy to other countries?

Fossil fuels don't run out so fast. Yeah, their price rise, but that rising price makes it economic to use resources that haven't been mined out yet because of other, cheaper oilfields.
And renewable energy has one big benefit: It don't need a big power grid.
In fact they are ideal for developing countries without established power grid. In those countries the middle and upper class use diesel generators to produce power ( or avoid shortages of the public grid ) and it's possible to replace them with solar cells or windmills.
At the moment they are still to expensive, but the Chinese have been build up a lot of factories for solar cells, so the price will drop...

And that energy you want to sell from the US to other countries ?
Canada has due his rivers a lot of energy.
Mexico has not the money to build a strong power grid, and the wealthy Mexicans buy a cheap Japanese diesel generator or a cheap Chinese Solar Cell panel (or both).

[FlamingCobra]

we are so screwed!

[Thaeris]

I think that's... a really poor discussion prompt.

Again, the first thing to consider is the myriad bad policies and trends in the US which stifle growth. This includes policies which inhibit small businesses and private ventures.  It's quite plain: such establishments can otherwise serve to either boost the local economies (both goods and services, and also employment) of the locales in which they are based, or they contribute to innovations which major establishments would not consider on their own volition. Many of the great pioneering aviation firms started in garages or tiny warehouses. Personal research and self-motivated studies have contributed to countless fields in sicence and industry - the US has made many such contributions.

If the government really wants the job market to increase, internal changes to the tax and policy system need to be made so that local economies and innovators can flourish - throwing money blindly about seldom actually works. Again, blanket statements ho!

[Mikes]

How do we solve the homeless problem?
Involuntary euthanization

(kudos to those who get the reference)

I hate the homeless...
...ness problem that plagues this city.

[Woolie Wool]

You guys do realize that he's using you all for essay fodder, right? 

If I were his teacher I'd give him a D, maybe even an F since it has that astonishingly racist "**** the starving Africans" comment.

[TwentyPercentCooler]

You guys do realize that he's using you all for essay fodder, right? 

If I were his teacher I'd give him a D, maybe even an F since it has that astonishingly racist "**** the starving Africans" comment.

Racism aside, you do have to admit that some of the places we send aid to seem to have absolutely zero interest in helping themselves. There are starving people and sick people and homeless people in the country you live in, don't you agree in improving your own situation first?

Selfishness always gets a negative stigma, but it's absolutely necessary for survival. My view certainly doesn't go as far as to say, "**** 'em," but I think we should help ourselves first. When we've fixed our own problems, we'll be in a better position to help others fix theirs. Randomly throwing money and other aid at the problems in poor countries isn't going to help anyone until the root of the problems is corrected, and the root of the problem is mostly corrupt dictators and their death squads stealing everything that's sent to the country they rule. But then again, meddling in the politics of other countries makes everyone hate us, so, it's really a no-win situation.