Author Topic: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?  (Read 9013 times)

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Offline Sushi

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
I don't know any way to make the AI challenging in a 1on1 fight for Vanilla freespace.

Once you add gliding and sidethrust, preferably at high damp settings, though...

It's very possible to make an AI that is super aggressive, basically always is pointing at you, and has perfect aim. He'll sidethrust to throw off your aim. If you DO get behind him somehow, he'll use glide to face you.

Basically, once you get rid of the restriction that ships need to fly the way they're pointing, the upper level of the AI gets much higher.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 10:30:27 am by Sushi »

 

Offline Marcov

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
Finally, if you're doing this for an actual campaign, there was a lot more that went into making tough aces (I'm thinking specifically about "My Brother, My Enemy") than just making them more difficult to defeat. The music, their callsigns, their equipment, and intercepted messages all played a big role.

Well, as to "My Brother, My Enemy", this is kind of the other way around; a wing of elite pilots vs. 1 super-pilot (the player). Well yeah, kind of not that fun if you've got seven-to-one odds in your favor against an enemy super-ace.

If I could do this against 7 human pilots in a non-dogfight(read; the mission type), trust me I would.

What does this exactly mean?

Basically, once you get rid of the restriction that ships need to fly the way they're pointing, the upper level of the AI gets much higher.

Can the player actually "sidethrust" and "glide"? I never knew you could do those things. Are they possible to do?
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
Well, as to "My Brother, My Enemy", this is kind of the other way around; a wing of elite pilots vs. 1 super-pilot (the player). Well yeah, kind of not that fun if you've got seven-to-one odds in your favor against an enemy super-ace.

No uh that's exactly how "My Brother My Enemy" works, tell your two wingmen to depart at the mission start and it's you (1 player) versus 7 elite pilots (the enemy)

Quote
Can the player actually "sidethrust" and "glide"? I never knew you could do those things. Are they possible to do?

Yes it's very easy, in a ship with the right tabling glide is alt-G by default, check the controls for the sidethrust bindings

 

Offline Sushi

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
Can the player actually "sidethrust" and "glide"? I never knew you could do those things. Are they possible to do?

In vanilla Freespace, no. In many mods and TCs, yes to one or both.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
Sidethrust is bound to SHIFT-1 and SHIFT-3 by default.
(´・ω・`)
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Offline Mars

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
Try my gauntlet for BP2 - it's in the forum somewhere. You will not make it through the whole thing on medium settings the first time, and you'll probably die before the third wave.

That's BP-Lieutenant.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
He's talking about one on one.
Getting swarmed wave after wave in a gauntlet isn't 1 on 1.
(´・ω・`)
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Offline Mars

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
He's talking about one on one.
Getting swarmed wave after wave in a gauntlet isn't 1 on 1.

. . . he was talking 1 v 7 last I heard.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
7 v 1
Of course you can make it hard for the player by giving the AI the numerical advantage. >.>

I want an AI that can give me a run for my money. ALONE... which is pretty much impossible seeing as all AIs are predictable and thus some silly strategy or another will always work against them. ie. TURRET MODE.

Honestly, I tried to recreate this by giving the AI a maxed-out stats, 1/4th turn time, take 20% damage etc...still too easy.
Added 12 fighters (training drones) to support them...and still you can just abuse the AI by running away and then treb spamming, since no matter the AI skill, they still fail horribly at avoiding trebuchets at long range >.> (though yes, 1 vs 13, you try dogfighting them you DIE)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 06:38:34 pm by Droid803 »
(´・ω・`)
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Offline Destiny

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
The main thing about the AI is that they always fly straight at you, sometimes doing little jiggles. Unless this behavior can be engineered out of the human instinct and how AIs are programmed, they're always going to be easy to kill unless it's an unfair fight.

[Droid experiences]
*whistle*

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
The main thing about the AI is that they always fly straight at you, sometimes doing little jiggles. Unless this behavior can be engineered out of the human instinct and how AIs are programmed, they're always going to be easy to kill unless it's an unfair fight.

This is actually the exact opposite of the problem FYI

 

Offline Marcov

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
Yes, pretty much, the key in dogfights is to be aggressive as possible. In dogfights where there are more than 1 participants on each team the tendency is to have a "turning" fight, meaning to say, engaging in the classic-style dueling by keeping on turning until hopefully, you reach your opponent's tail (though often if 2 duelists have about the same turning speed they end up in a jousting engagement, then begin the whole turn-try-to-get-the-tail process). This is what is really fun; this is what happens when you fight a Dragon (though I think it was simply fun because I wasn't so aware of the "turret-mode" strategy).

But again, sadly, the AI simply isn't human. The best they can do is to do those fancy maneuvers and as I said, take pot shots at you while spinning round and round but conclusively, you get to destroy him pretty easily by staying in turret mode. If my opponent were a human, he should ALSO engage in turret mode, forcing ME to flee out of fear of losing the "frozen jousting" engagement.

In other words, even YOU against ONE VERY SKILLED AI pilot will often be not that interesting, because 1)Space dogfights, or rather FreeSpace dogfights are fast-paced and dogfighting is really made for 1 player engaging many AI enemies at once, 2)AI pilots aren't smart and are based more on calculation than on logic, and 3) This isn't multiplayer.

So, if we get to the point wherein some smart coders get to have the ingredients for a really sane, expert AI ace, Player vs. AI will usually be best with 1 player against many AI pilots.

I actually tried the 7-to-1 odds thing, in fact I think it was 6 friendly AI pilots flying Persi (I think they were even below General, maybe Major or something, I don't remember exactly; but for goodness' sakes, they were supposed to be elite pilots!) against 1 BALLS OF STEELE Ulysses (on Insane to avoid firing rate buffs).

The Ulysses should have considerably more maneuverability than the Perseus even though it is the much older design, plus the Balls-of-Steele bonus turning rate (someone proclaimed that several posts ago); in fact, that was my point; in Werner Voss' fight against 7 opponents, he flew a plane that was basically more maneuverable but was simply the more outdated, harder to fly machine.

But NO. Humans are simply better - the 7 Persi BLEW IT TO BITS in probably less than half a minute - clearly, in AI fights, sheer numbers will MASH the fewer but more skilled opponent. Besides, this whole recreate-history thing simply won't have high chances of actually being worthwhile in a game concerning robotic-minded NPC's. Though of course, a skilled FREDder can even the odds very easily.
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline Qent

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
BALLS OF STEELE Ulysses (on Insane to avoid firing rate buffs).
I'm 99% certain that doesn't work.

 

Offline Fury

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
I have no idea how good or bad this AI is, but I tweaked it just for this topic. Since I have no FS2 installed at the moment, I could not test it in practice. Sushi and others like Spoon may know additional tricks to make the AI more aggressive and I could tweak these values further if any tips are posted.

http://www.mediafire.com/?h7c8cu9wpk469cp
Quote
Experimental AI
- No difficulty level scaling
- No player bonuses
- An attempt at aggressive AI that uses gliding and sliding as much as it can
- AI doesn't cheat but doesn't pull any punches either
- Fighter and bomber sliding velicity 1/2 of top velocity
- Fighter and bomber sliding acceleration and deacceleration 1/2 of forward acceleration and deacceleration

 

Offline Killer Whale

  • 29
  • Oh no, not again.
Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
What about custom building AIs, so say it's FREDed to fight a slower fighter it uses Jousting tacticts, or if it's fighting a fighter wih poor maneuvarability it tries to get in close and personal to out-turn the enemy. You could custom-build your friendly AIs to be able to those magnificent spins, but give them poor courage and a hopeless precision so they just look like they're fighting well, but in reality are terrible. Put the enemy in a different, probably superior fighter. Give the enemy an attack Alpha 1 at high priority, and attack the others at a very low priority.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 08:41:45 pm by Killer Whale »

 

Offline Sushi

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
I have no idea how good or bad this AI is, but I tweaked it just for this topic. Since I have no FS2 installed at the moment, I could not test it in practice. Sushi and others like Spoon may know additional tricks to make the AI more aggressive and I could tweak these values further if any tips are posted.

http://www.mediafire.com/?h7c8cu9wpk469cp
Quote
Experimental AI
- No difficulty level scaling
- No player bonuses
- An attempt at aggressive AI that uses gliding and sliding as much as it can
- AI doesn't cheat but doesn't pull any punches either
- Fighter and bomber sliding velicity 1/2 of top velocity
- Fighter and bomber sliding acceleration and deacceleration 1/2 of forward acceleration and deacceleration

I couldn't extract any files, kept complaining about "unsupported compression method."

 

Offline Qent

  • 29
Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
It worked fine for me. Did you update 7-Zip? Maybe it's LZMA2.

 
Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
I created a very interesting AI behaviour for a mission by differing the goals of the enemy fighter depending on its distance to different things, like the player.

 

Offline Qent

  • 29
Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
How about tabling special ships and weapons for the AI? I'm sure you could sneak some extra slide or glide without making it too noticeable. Maybe you could also give them autoaim or make their missiles more countermeasure resistant.

 

Offline Marcov

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Re: FreeSpace super-skilled AI...possible?
How about tabling special ships and weapons for the AI? I'm sure you could sneak some extra slide or glide without making it too noticeable. Maybe you could also give them autoaim or make their missiles more countermeasure resistant.

Kind of defeats the purpose. Aces are supposedly elite pilots, not pilots who win all the time simply because they've got better equipment.
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI