Author Topic: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365  (Read 7039 times)

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Offline TwentyPercentCooler

  • Operates at 375 kelvin
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Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
Ooooh, this is my can o' worms.

First of all: YES, go nuclear.

Second of all, this chart is assuming a uranium-powered PWR, which is actually completely outdated at this point. Molten salt reactors can run off of thorium; it's cheaper than uranium, far more plentiful, the thorium fuel cycle resists nuclear weapon proliferation, and all reactor designs of the past decade, especially in the U.S., as passively safe. No matter what happens to them, if their operation is interrupted, they shut themselves down without needing outside input.

  

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
Ooooh, this is my can o' worms.

First of all: YES, go nuclear.

Second of all, this chart is assuming a uranium-powered PWR, which is actually completely outdated at this point. Molten salt reactors can run off of thorium; it's cheaper than uranium, far more plentiful, the thorium fuel cycle resists nuclear weapon proliferation, and all reactor designs of the past decade, especially in the U.S., as passively safe. No matter what happens to them, if their operation is interrupted, they shut themselves down without needing outside input.

Theoretically, sure.  Practically, hell no.  ALL our power-producing reactors are Generation II/II+ light water reactors.  Liquid metal designs exist (along with all maner of other advanced designs like pebble-bed, waste-recycling PRISM, etc.), but there's a HUGE difference between designs on paper and actual operating plants (I'm talking commerical, not prototypes).  Implementation is a long way off, if it ever even happens.  Personally I believe high temperature gas is more likely, or simply advanced design LWRs more likely still.  Thorium fuel is also a long way off, and harder to implement than it seems on paper.  You can't have just a thoruim core, it has to start out with some amount of uranium or plutonium load.  And at least according to the design team that did this my senior year of uni, thorium is, for the moment, actually far more expensive than uranium fuel.  You need more complex latticing and zoning of the fuel, and thorium is something of a "specialty metal" right now because of its low demand, and therefore lack of production ability.  This CAN change by putting some effort in establishing infrastructure for thorium, but that's probably not going to happen until uranium becomes more expensive.
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline TwentyPercentCooler

  • Operates at 375 kelvin
  • 28
Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
Ooooh, this is my can o' worms.

First of all: YES, go nuclear.

Second of all, this chart is assuming a uranium-powered PWR, which is actually completely outdated at this point. Molten salt reactors can run off of thorium; it's cheaper than uranium, far more plentiful, the thorium fuel cycle resists nuclear weapon proliferation, and all reactor designs of the past decade, especially in the U.S., as passively safe. No matter what happens to them, if their operation is interrupted, they shut themselves down without needing outside input.

Theoretically, sure.  Practically, hell no.  ALL our power-producing reactors are Generation II/II+ light water reactors.  Liquid metal designs exist (along with all maner of other advanced designs like pebble-bed, waste-recycling PRISM, etc.), but there's a HUGE difference between designs on paper and actual operating plants (I'm talking commerical, not prototypes).  Implementation is a long way off, if it ever even happens.  Personally I believe high temperature gas is more likely, or simply advanced design LWRs more likely still.  Thorium fuel is also a long way off, and harder to implement than it seems on paper.  You can't have just a thoruim core, it has to start out with some amount of uranium or plutonium load.  And at least according to the design team that did this my senior year of uni, thorium is, for the moment, actually far more expensive than uranium fuel.  You need more complex latticing and zoning of the fuel, and thorium is something of a "specialty metal" right now because of its low demand, and therefore lack of production ability.  This CAN change by putting some effort in establishing infrastructure for thorium, but that's probably not going to happen until uranium becomes more expensive.

Oh dear. Molten salt reactors have been around for over a half-century. The first one began operation in 1954. Most have fuel cycles that initially require U 233, and then they cycle the fuel between Th and U 233, and also distill out Pa 233 that decays to U 233 and can be reintroduced to the fuel.

The advantages are FAR too numerous to ignore. Passive safety is a hallmark of almost all generation 4 reactor designs, but molten salt reactors also do not operate under high pressures, don't require a pressure vessel, and the salts used for fuel are stable compounds. Since the fuel requires chemical purification at some point, it's also easy to remove neutron poisons, a plague in most currently operating reactors and a factor that can significantly decrease safety (the effects of neutron poisons combined with several other factors were the cause of the Chernobyl accident, which was essentially a showcase of the worst possible way to design a reactor). Because of the lack of need for a high pressure vessel, these designs can be less expensive to build, and they're also very easily scalable, from submarine-size to commercial gigawatt-scale plants.

Thorium is currently discarded as waste while purifying other metals; in the crust, it's about as abundant as lead, which is to say, it's far easier to find than uranium, and molten salt reactors can burn almost any transuranic fuels with little modification. Thorium can be had at about $15 per pound. Uranium is well over 3 times that, and that's just to buy it. Then, you've gotta enrich it, which is a fantastically expensive process, and by fantastically expensive, I mean enrichment is currently what prevents all countries that aren't first-world and rich from having access to nuclear power.

The biggest problem right now is the plumbing, but when compared to the advantages, it's just a matter of time before we find a solution to it. Yes, it does need an initial supply of U 233, but most current designs for this type have positive breeding coefficients once fueled and thus produce more fuel than they consume. Most of our new designs have really removed the availability of fuel from the difficulty evaluation. The real difficulty is getting people to stop being afraid of the world nuclear.

 

Offline Qent

  • 29
Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
That is why we're all depending on Klaus to make the thorium cycle practical! :D

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

  • 210
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Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
Again, DESIGNS and PROTOTYPES.  Small scale, special purpose, and experimental/research reactors  I'm aware that they have existed for a long while, but there are very good reasons why commerical plants are still water.  The theory and physics are the easy part.  The limiting factor is always the practical engineering and material constraints.  There's also countless   It's not just a matter of "fixing the plumbing."  If we could, we would.  We don't cling to water for the hell of it. 

Fuel requiring chemical purification is a MASSIVE drawback, not a plus.  Separating products from fuel is anything but easy, especially from hot waste.  You want fuel that you can drop in, run constantly for a year and a half, and then pull out and discard (or eventually reprocess).  Neutron poisons are NOT universally bad either.  With aggressive burnable poison loadings, core life can be stretched to unbelievable lengths, also meaning you're burning much more of the fuel rather than throwing it out.  I'm not sure what you mean by them decreasing safety.  I'm extremely familiar with the Chernobyl accident, and do not know what the link to neutron poisons is you're talking about. 

I don't mean to sound like I'm taking a dump all over liquid metal designs, but I really feel the need to keep nuclear discussions realistic.  The same as how we like to keep the renewables from drastically over-selling with all the magic future tech that may eventually exist. 
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline TwentyPercentCooler

  • Operates at 375 kelvin
  • 28
Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
Again, DESIGNS and PROTOTYPES.  Small scale, special purpose, and experimental/research reactors  I'm aware that they have existed for a long while, but there are very good reasons why commerical plants are still water.  The theory and physics are the easy part.  The limiting factor is always the practical engineering and material constraints.  There's also countless   It's not just a matter of "fixing the plumbing."  If we could, we would.  We don't cling to water for the hell of it. 

Fuel requiring chemical purification is a MASSIVE drawback, not a plus.  Separating products from fuel is anything but easy, especially from hot waste.  You want fuel that you can drop in, run constantly for a year and a half, and then pull out and discard (or eventually reprocess).  Neutron poisons are NOT universally bad either.  With aggressive burnable poison loadings, core life can be stretched to unbelievable lengths, also meaning you're burning much more of the fuel rather than throwing it out.  I'm not sure what you mean by them decreasing safety.  I'm extremely familiar with the Chernobyl accident, and do not know what the link to neutron poisons is you're talking about. 

I don't mean to sound like I'm taking a dump all over liquid metal designs, but I really feel the need to keep nuclear discussions realistic.  The same as how we like to keep the renewables from drastically over-selling with all the magic future tech that may eventually exist.

As far as Chernobyl goes, Xe 135 delayed an increase in power, causing the inexperienced operators to basically yank the control rods all the way out. But that's another discussion altogether, because I could go on for quite a while about all the mistakes made there.

A two-fluid design makes the fuel purification much, much simpler than what you're describing. Again, the difficulty is in the plumbing, because graphite piping reacts infavorably to free neutrons. This was the original proposal for a molten salt reactor, but the difficulty in the plumbing caused it to be abandoned for the single-fluid designs, in which the purification of the fuel is the primary complication. However, our much improved materials engineering and especially our understanding of carbon compounds compared to the time when the two-fluid designs were proposed makes it likely that we could surmount the difficulties with a bit of effort. The chemical purification process does not necessarily have to take place at very high temperatures because it can be done after the heat exchange process in the primary fuel loop.

Even without molten salt designs, there are plenty of promising designs that can remove the necessity of using wasteful once-through fuel cycles. Uranium is getting more expensive by the day and purifying it is and always will be a pain. I think the implementation problems with new reactor designs is more a function of the public's fear of nuclear power and the lack of backing funds as a result. My personal opinion, though, is that design needs to stay a step ahead of demand. Switch to a thorium fuel cycle now, before uranium gets too rare and expensive.

 

Offline watsisname

Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
Assuming skin to be an ideal blackbody, a typical-sized human emits about 700W of electromagnetic radiation.

This is as much power as seven 100W light bulbs operating for an average time of ~70 years, which is 429,420kWh.  Thus, each person, through their lifetime, emits as much power as burning 174 tons of coal.

:)
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

  • 210
  • the REAL Nuke of HLP
    • North Carolina Tigers
Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
Again, DESIGNS and PROTOTYPES.  Small scale, special purpose, and experimental/research reactors  I'm aware that they have existed for a long while, but there are very good reasons why commerical plants are still water.  The theory and physics are the easy part.  The limiting factor is always the practical engineering and material constraints.  There's also countless   It's not just a matter of "fixing the plumbing."  If we could, we would.  We don't cling to water for the hell of it. 

Fuel requiring chemical purification is a MASSIVE drawback, not a plus.  Separating products from fuel is anything but easy, especially from hot waste.  You want fuel that you can drop in, run constantly for a year and a half, and then pull out and discard (or eventually reprocess).  Neutron poisons are NOT universally bad either.  With aggressive burnable poison loadings, core life can be stretched to unbelievable lengths, also meaning you're burning much more of the fuel rather than throwing it out.  I'm not sure what you mean by them decreasing safety.  I'm extremely familiar with the Chernobyl accident, and do not know what the link to neutron poisons is you're talking about. 

I don't mean to sound like I'm taking a dump all over liquid metal designs, but I really feel the need to keep nuclear discussions realistic.  The same as how we like to keep the renewables from drastically over-selling with all the magic future tech that may eventually exist.

As far as Chernobyl goes, Xe 135 delayed an increase in power, causing the inexperienced operators to basically yank the control rods all the way out. But that's another discussion altogether, because I could go on for quite a while about all the mistakes made there.

A two-fluid design makes the fuel purification much, much simpler than what you're describing. Again, the difficulty is in the plumbing, because graphite piping reacts infavorably to free neutrons. This was the original proposal for a molten salt reactor, but the difficulty in the plumbing caused it to be abandoned for the single-fluid designs, in which the purification of the fuel is the primary complication. However, our much improved materials engineering and especially our understanding of carbon compounds compared to the time when the two-fluid designs were proposed makes it likely that we could surmount the difficulties with a bit of effort. The chemical purification process does not necessarily have to take place at very high temperatures because it can be done after the heat exchange process in the primary fuel loop.

Even without molten salt designs, there are plenty of promising designs that can remove the necessity of using wasteful once-through fuel cycles. Uranium is getting more expensive by the day and purifying it is and always will be a pain. I think the implementation problems with new reactor designs is more a function of the public's fear of nuclear power and the lack of backing funds as a result. My personal opinion, though, is that design needs to stay a step ahead of demand. Switch to a thorium fuel cycle now, before uranium gets too rare and expensive.

Not to be an ass, but how much of this do you actually know?  Where are you getting this info?  Because honestly, it sounds like you're just throwing big words out there.  Neutron poisons don't act that way.  All they do is absorb some neutrons that otherwise might have gone on to fission a U-235 atom.  They reduce core reactivity.  They don't "delay" power rise.  The Chernobyl operators withdrew control rods because they were trying to maintain power at a very low value, outside of reactor's safe window in order to perform a test. 

I couldn't make heads or tails of the second paragraph.  I don't know the design you are talking about.  But I meant radioactive hot, not temperature.  As for the fuel concerns, that's pretty much independent of the reactor design.  We can close the fuel cycle with currently operating technology.  We just need permission to use breeder reactors and not give a **** about nonproliferation.  We're letting a HUGE and easy source of fuel go to waste because of a bunch of political bull**** about a non-issue.  Producing plutonium doesn't mean some terrorists or a foreign government are going to come in and steal it.  If they could do that, we've got much larger problems.
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline Qent

  • 29
Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
So... the conclusion is the same? Go nuclear now?

Assuming skin to be an ideal blackbody, a typical-sized human emits about 700W of electromagnetic radiation.

This is as much power as seven 100W light bulbs operating for an average time of ~70 years, which is 429,420kWh.  Thus, each person, through their lifetime, emits as much power as burning 174 tons of coal.

:)
Maybe so, but he only eats enough to power one 100W lightbulb, which is the more useful figure. :P

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
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Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
Assuming skin to be an ideal blackbody, a typical-sized human emits about 700W of electromagnetic radiation.

This is as much power as seven 100W light bulbs operating for an average time of ~70 years, which is 429,420kWh.  Thus, each person, through their lifetime, emits as much power as burning 174 tons of coal.

:)

energy

 

Offline WeatherOp

  • 29
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Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
So... the conclusion is the same? Go nuclear now?

Please do. That would really lower the price of coal which means more blacksmithing for me. :p
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 10:44:13 pm by WeatherOp »
Decent Blacksmith, Master procrastinator.

PHD in the field of Almost Finishing Projects.

 

Offline Bob-san

  • Wishes he was cool
  • 210
  • It's 5 minutes to midnight.
Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
So... the conclusion is the same? Go nuclear now?

Assuming skin to be an ideal blackbody, a typical-sized human emits about 700W of electromagnetic radiation.

This is as much power as seven 100W light bulbs operating for an average time of ~70 years, which is 429,420kWh.  Thus, each person, through their lifetime, emits as much power as burning 174 tons of coal.

:)
Maybe so, but he only eats enough to power one 100W lightbulb, which is the more useful figure. :P
What's the caloric requirement to provide 376kWh?

So... the conclusion is the same? Go nuclear now?

Please do. That would really lower the price of coal which means more blacksmithing for me. :p
Or do it because the reactions are stable and sustainable. I don't recommend 100% nuclear (load balancing issues and core capacity) but I think we should go mostly nuclear. That, or find a battery method. Hey, what's to stop us from using contained bodies of water as energy stores on off hours?
NGTM-1R: Currently considering spending the rest of the day in bed cuddling.
GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
Bob-san: The Rancor.

 

Offline TwentyPercentCooler

  • Operates at 375 kelvin
  • 28
Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
Again, DESIGNS and PROTOTYPES.  Small scale, special purpose, and experimental/research reactors  I'm aware that they have existed for a long while, but there are very good reasons why commerical plants are still water.  The theory and physics are the easy part.  The limiting factor is always the practical engineering and material constraints.  There's also countless   It's not just a matter of "fixing the plumbing."  If we could, we would.  We don't cling to water for the hell of it. 

Fuel requiring chemical purification is a MASSIVE drawback, not a plus.  Separating products from fuel is anything but easy, especially from hot waste.  You want fuel that you can drop in, run constantly for a year and a half, and then pull out and discard (or eventually reprocess).  Neutron poisons are NOT universally bad either.  With aggressive burnable poison loadings, core life can be stretched to unbelievable lengths, also meaning you're burning much more of the fuel rather than throwing it out.  I'm not sure what you mean by them decreasing safety.  I'm extremely familiar with the Chernobyl accident, and do not know what the link to neutron poisons is you're talking about. 

I don't mean to sound like I'm taking a dump all over liquid metal designs, but I really feel the need to keep nuclear discussions realistic.  The same as how we like to keep the renewables from drastically over-selling with all the magic future tech that may eventually exist.

As far as Chernobyl goes, Xe 135 delayed an increase in power, causing the inexperienced operators to basically yank the control rods all the way out. But that's another discussion altogether, because I could go on for quite a while about all the mistakes made there.

A two-fluid design makes the fuel purification much, much simpler than what you're describing. Again, the difficulty is in the plumbing, because graphite piping reacts infavorably to free neutrons. This was the original proposal for a molten salt reactor, but the difficulty in the plumbing caused it to be abandoned for the single-fluid designs, in which the purification of the fuel is the primary complication. However, our much improved materials engineering and especially our understanding of carbon compounds compared to the time when the two-fluid designs were proposed makes it likely that we could surmount the difficulties with a bit of effort. The chemical purification process does not necessarily have to take place at very high temperatures because it can be done after the heat exchange process in the primary fuel loop.

Even without molten salt designs, there are plenty of promising designs that can remove the necessity of using wasteful once-through fuel cycles. Uranium is getting more expensive by the day and purifying it is and always will be a pain. I think the implementation problems with new reactor designs is more a function of the public's fear of nuclear power and the lack of backing funds as a result. My personal opinion, though, is that design needs to stay a step ahead of demand. Switch to a thorium fuel cycle now, before uranium gets too rare and expensive.

Not to be an ass, but how much of this do you actually know?  Where are you getting this info?  Because honestly, it sounds like you're just throwing big words out there.  Neutron poisons don't act that way.  All they do is absorb some neutrons that otherwise might have gone on to fission a U-235 atom.  They reduce core reactivity.  They don't "delay" power rise.  The Chernobyl operators withdrew control rods because they were trying to maintain power at a very low value, outside of reactor's safe window in order to perform a test. 

I couldn't make heads or tails of the second paragraph.  I don't know the design you are talking about.  But I meant radioactive hot, not temperature.  As for the fuel concerns, that's pretty much independent of the reactor design.  We can close the fuel cycle with currently operating technology.  We just need permission to use breeder reactors and not give a **** about nonproliferation.  We're letting a HUGE and easy source of fuel go to waste because of a bunch of political bull**** about a non-issue.  Producing plutonium doesn't mean some terrorists or a foreign government are going to come in and steal it.  If they could do that, we've got much larger problems.

You're not coming across as an ass at all, for the record.

The Xe 135 poisoning in the Chernobyl reactor was holding down the power of the #4 reactor and it made it difficult for the inexperienced operators to get a handle on the power level of the reactor. They were in a state of confusion because the position of the control rods didn't have the expected effects on the power level of the reactor. That, plus the fact that they knew almost nothing about the test they were supposed to be doing, led to the ridiculously unsafe operating condition of the #4 reactor.

And yeah, we could use the U/Pu fuels if the hippies would quit getting their panties in a bunch over it. The Th fuel cycle produces fewer long-lived transuranic waste products, though, and since the liquid fuel is essentially self-refuelling, it results in less storage. I agree with you in that there's really no pressing need to switch to the Th fuel cycle, but at some point, the nuclear industry and people that are capable of thinking rationally are going to have to essentially shove nuclear power down the throats of the Fox News controlled sheep and there will be a lot less bile if we can increase safety and decrease waste production. None of the waste storage would be a concern if everyone would just listen to me and make a railgun capable of escape velocity that fires the waste into the sun, though.  :P

About the two-fluid molten salt design: it burns U 233 in the core and the secondary loop has Th to absorb neutrons and be transmuted into U 233 by way of Pa 233. The only chemical processing involves removing the Pa 233 from the second loop by fluorination and holding it while it decays into U 233. The major design difficulty is that the plumbing is made of graphite because it absorbs neutrons and doesn't dissolve in the salts, but it has a tendency to expand and become brittle. Obviously, that's not a great property for a pipe to have. The single fluid design has both the U 233 fuel and the Th in the same loop, but the processing is MUCH more complicated. I prefer the two-fluid design because I believe we have the materials science necessary to find piping materials that will be able to absorb neutrons, operate and the necessary temperatures, and not dissolve in the salts. You're correct in the assertion that the MSRs that have been operated were prototypes - they were also very old. We can do this now. If not, there are plenty of other more conventional designs in the works, too.

 

Offline Qent

  • 29
Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
What's the caloric requirement to provide 376kWh?
323,518.164 Calories. Why? O.o


Please do. That would really lower the price of coal which means more blacksmithing for me. :p
Or do it because the reactions are stable and sustainable. I don't recommend 100% nuclear (load balancing issues and core capacity) but I think we should go mostly nuclear. That, or find a battery method. Hey, what's to stop us from using contained bodies of water as energy stores on off hours?
Or do it because we could do cool things if electric power were even cheaper than it already is.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

  • 210
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    • North Carolina Tigers
Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
The Xe 135 poisoning in the Chernobyl reactor was holding down the power of the #4 reactor and it made it difficult for the inexperienced operators to get a handle on the power level of the reactor. They were in a state of confusion because the position of the control rods didn't have the expected effects on the power level of the reactor. That, plus the fact that they knew almost nothing about the test they were supposed to be doing, led to the ridiculously unsafe operating condition of the #4 reactor.

Ok I see where you're coming from now.  Although I still maintain it's not holding down or delaying the power, what it WOULD do is change the estimated critical position of the control rods.  Xenon production is just a fact of nuclear reactors though.  It's easily compensated for, and it decays away on its own.  Manually stripping it out would do very little for you.  I don't recall specifically the operators not compensating for xenon.  If that really happened, the russian operating procedures/training were flat out wrong, and I'm amazed they were able to operate at all.  Or the operators had the biggest "woops" in history if they just forgot.

Quote
And yeah, we could use the U/Pu fuels if the hippies would quit getting their panties in a bunch over it. The Th fuel cycle produces fewer long-lived transuranic waste products, though, and since the liquid fuel is essentially self-refuelling, it results in less storage. I agree with you in that there's really no pressing need to switch to the Th fuel cycle, but at some point, the nuclear industry and people that are capable of thinking rationally are going to have to essentially shove nuclear power down the throats of the Fox News controlled sheep and there will be a lot less bile if we can increase safety and decrease waste production. None of the waste storage would be a concern if everyone would just listen to me and make a railgun capable of escape velocity that fires the waste into the sun, though.  :P

I agree that eventually thorium fuel will become important (economically if not actual need due to lack of other fuel), but I think it's a very long way off.  And I think it's progressing at just about the perfect rate.  We already have alternatives like MOX and reprocessed fuel closer to implementation right now.  I'm not sure what to make of the Fox News comment.  Conservatives are generally far more accepting of nuclear power than liberals*.  Safety and waste aren't even problems NOW, we just need people to stop saying they are.  Even if we DON'T reprocess, we aren't in danger of running out of room for waste anytime soon, with or without a repository. 

*generalization

Quote
About the two-fluid molten salt design: it burns U 233 in the core and the secondary loop has Th to absorb neutrons and be transmuted into U 233 by way of Pa 233. The only chemical processing involves removing the Pa 233 from the second loop by fluorination and holding it while it decays into U 233. The major design difficulty is that the plumbing is made of graphite because it absorbs neutrons and doesn't dissolve in the salts, but it has a tendency to expand and become brittle. Obviously, that's not a great property for a pipe to have. The single fluid design has both the U 233 fuel and the Th in the same loop, but the processing is MUCH more complicated. I prefer the two-fluid design because I believe we have the materials science necessary to find piping materials that will be able to absorb neutrons, operate and the necessary temperatures, and not dissolve in the salts. You're correct in the assertion that the MSRs that have been operated were prototypes - they were also very old. We can do this now. If not, there are plenty of other more conventional designs in the works, too.

I'm still not wrapping my head around this.  Are we talking about MOVING fuel here?  :eek2:  And why on earth do we WANT piping to absorb neutrons?  Do you mean scatter?  Is the piping being used as a moderator?  I'd love to take a look at this design if you have a link or something.
Engineering issues aside, I also have doubts about the desirability of a liquid metal plant from an operating standpoint.  Foremost, the necessity of keeping the coolant melted in a shutdown condition.  I don't know how pumping of liquid metals works, but I have to imagine it's a *****.  Likewise for the maintenance of the plant components.  I don't know if sodium activates off the top of my head, and I'm feeling too lazy to look it up right now, but it DOES tend to explode does it not?  A pipe rupture accident would be a whole new level of "oh ****."  LOCAs are bad enough without the leaking coolant exploding  :lol:
Quote
You're not coming across as an ass at all, for the record.

thanks, that's good to know.
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
Assuming skin to be an ideal blackbody, a typical-sized human emits about 700W of electromagnetic radiation.

This is as much power as seven 100W light bulbs operating for an average time of ~70 years, which is 429,420kWh.  Thus, each person, through their lifetime, emits as much power as burning 174 tons of coal.

:)

ive said it once and il say it again. use humans for reactor fuel. doing this will not only generate power but also reduce demand until a point where an equilibrium is reached. the workings of such a reactor would be simple, you would have massive ovens in which living humans are dropped directly into the furnace and used as fuel. this will boil water to drive turbines, which in turn will feed the grid. this will also reduce the need for archaic nuclear reactors which waste nuclear fuel that we could be enriching and using for warhead production.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
The easier solution is to use LED lightning...

 

Offline watsisname

Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
ive said it once and il say it again. use humans for reactor fuel. doing this will not only generate power but also reduce demand until a point where an equilibrium is reached. the workings of such a reactor would be simple, you would have massive ovens in which living humans are dropped directly into the furnace and used as fuel. this will boil water to drive turbines, which in turn will feed the grid. this will also reduce the need for archaic nuclear reactors which waste nuclear fuel that we could be enriching and using for warhead production.


Problem is humans contain a lot of water -- that'd cut down on the effectiveness of your reactors.  What you could do is, before using them for fuel, drive them into slavery to build and run your reactors and ****, but not give them any water.  This would cut down on labor cost, too.  Then when they collapse from dehydration, bring in fresh workers to shovel 'em in and repeat the process.

Perfect system. :)
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 

Offline Nuke

  • Ka-Boom!
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  • Mutants Worship Me
Re: Fuel source comparison to power 1x100W bulb 24/7/365
good thinking. but being the sadistic **** that i am, id have to insist that they be thrown into the furnace alive. the beauty of my reactor design is that it will eventually eliminate all demand on power, by eliminating all those that make silly demands of their power.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN