[Trivial Psychic]

I've already got this in Mantis as it could be a bug, but it is also technically a feature request.  I was FREDding recently and discovered when I tried to make a cap-ship-subsystem-scan mission, that you can't select a submodel-subsystem to be scanned.  With more and more modelers making designs with actual destroyable submodels replacing the simpler box type, it should really be enabled.  Is this possible... or relatively easy to impliment?  If so, could it be done soon?

Thanks.

[Trivial Psychic]

Double-Post

I've just found out that its not submodels that are not scannable, its non-standard-named subsystem.  Basically, any subsystem that includes the names Navigation, Communication(s), Sensors, Weapons, or Engine(s), even if there are additional attributes such as numbers and locations (the Sathanas is a good example), may be scanned.  However, subsystems such as Reactor or Bridge, are not on the list and thus cannot be scanned.  I feel that this limitation should be lifted.

[CaptJosh]

That IS weird. 

Question: if the limitation is lifted, wouldn't we still need some sort of flag to indicate a subsystem is scannable? I mean, if the restriction is lifted and all subsystems become scannable, that might cause some issues in missions that only want certain systems scanned?

[zookeeper]

Question: if the limitation is lifted, wouldn't we still need some sort of flag to indicate a subsystem is scannable? I mean, if the restriction is lifted and all subsystems become scannable, that might cause some issues in missions that only want certain systems scanned?

Aren't only ships and subsystems with cargo scannable?

[Trivial Psychic]

That is correct.  Right now however, when you select a non-standard subsystem, the cargo space gets greyed out.

[karajorma]

So it seems like this should be fixable without destroying backwards compatibility. No old missions will have subsystems that suddenly become scannable since they have no cargo.

[zookeeper]

That is correct.  Right now however, when you select a non-standard subsystem, the cargo space gets greyed out.

Right, that seems to be the case. Kinda silly.

While we're on the subject... is there really any reason to ever gray the cargo space out? If someone wants to put cargo on a subsystem, why should they need to first go check the "toggle subsystem scanning" box?

[karajorma]

Because if you don't tick the box, you can't scan subsystems on anything below destroyer class.

[zookeeper]

Because if you don't tick the box, you can't scan subsystems on anything below destroyer class.

Yeah, and I don't see how that makes any sense. If a subsystem cannot be scanned unless it has cargo in any case, then why should I need to tick an extra box before I can put cargo on, say, a fighter subsystem? Are there retail missions where a subsystem on something below destroyer class has cargo but shouldn't be scannable?

[karajorma]

I think you're missing the point. If you don't have a tickbox you've just made every single destroyer in the game which doesn't have a cargo set for at least one subsystem scannable.

In addition you've complicated the code for scanning as now the code has to decide if a ship is scannable on parse by checking if there are any cargoes set for any of it's subsystems.

Now if you want to suggest moving the toggle button to the initial status editor (IIRC it's on the ship flags editor) that's a completely different matter.

[CaptJosh]

So it seems like this should be fixable without destroying backwards compatibility. No old missions will have subsystems that suddenly become scannable since they have no cargo.

That answers my question. I may not be a coder, but I do remember the importance of not breaking retail compatibility, so I thought it best to ask the question sooner rather than later. Glad there's a mechanism already in place that would make sure the change wouldn't be harmful to that.

[zookeeper]

I think you're missing the point. If you don't have a tickbox you've just made every single destroyer in the game which doesn't have a cargo set for at least one subsystem scannable.

I might be missing something indeed, because it still doesn't make sense to me. What does it matter if they're all scannable, if there is nothing to scan and thus scanning won't happen?

This is the way I see the current behaviour:

1. You can only scan subsystems which have cargo.
2. You can only put cargo on a subsystem if you toggle "toggle subsystem scanning" on, and it's off by default.

...which already assumes that if you put cargo somewhere, you want it to be scannable, so I have difficulty seeing how the "toggle subsystem scanning" checkbox isn't just an unnecessary extra hoop to jump through. If I need to make cargo scannable before I can put cargo anywhere, then the presence of cargo should be the only cue the game needs from me. As it is I feel like I need to tell FRED that "hey, I'd like to have subsystem cargo, so could you please make subsystem cargo scannable so I can put in the subsystem cargo".

Unless, as I said, I am still missing something.

In addition you've complicated the code for scanning as now the code has to decide if a ship is scannable on parse by checking if there are any cargoes set for any of it's subsystems.

Now if you want to suggest moving the toggle button to the initial status editor (IIRC it's on the ship flags editor) that's a completely different matter.

Well, sure, the more reasonable behaviour being technically more difficult to implement (or having no one willing to do it) is of course an understandable reason not to do it.

Anyway, yeah, the checkbox would make more sense in the initial status editor, I think.

And I guess I could volunteer to write a patch for determining scannability at parse time as per my suggestion, if it so happens that I'm not missing something important and it'd actually be an acceptable change. It sounds like it can't really complicate the code much, but that's certainly an assessment I don't want to try to make before taking a look.

[Goober5000]

The "toggle subsystem scanning" box essentially means "turn subsystem scanning behavior on if it's normally off, and off if it's normally on", but that was too much text to fit in the checkbox.

The default FS2 behavior is to scan the entire ship at once for corvettes and below, and to scan the subsystems of capital ships.  If a ship has that box checked, then the behavior changes to scan the subsystems for corvettes and below, and to scan the entire ship at once for capital ships.

For scan-the-entire-ship-at-once behavior, subsystems cannot be scanned, whether a subsystem has cargo or not.  Likewise, for scan-subsystems behavior, the ship cannot be scanned, whether the ship has cargo or not.

[chief1983]

The "toggle subsystem scanning" box essentially means "turn subsystem scanning behavior on if it's normally off, and off if it's normally on", but that was too much text to fit in the checkbox.

The default FS2 behavior is to scan the entire ship at once for corvettes and below, and to scan the subsystems of capital ships.  If a ship has that box checked, then the behavior changes to scan the subsystems for corvettes and below, and to scan the entire ship at once for capital ships.

For scan-the-entire-ship-at-once behavior, subsystems cannot be scanned, whether a subsystem has cargo or not.  Likewise, for scan-subsystems behavior, the ship cannot be scanned, whether the ship has cargo or not.

^ Can we get a tooltip in FRED with that information in it? 

[zookeeper]

The "toggle subsystem scanning" box essentially means "turn subsystem scanning behavior on if it's normally off, and off if it's normally on", but that was too much text to fit in the checkbox.

The default FS2 behavior is to scan the entire ship at once for corvettes and below, and to scan the subsystems of capital ships.  If a ship has that box checked, then the behavior changes to scan the subsystems for corvettes and below, and to scan the entire ship at once for capital ships.

For scan-the-entire-ship-at-once behavior, subsystems cannot be scanned, whether a subsystem has cargo or not.  Likewise, for scan-subsystems behavior, the ship cannot be scanned, whether the ship has cargo or not.

What the... That's seriously messed up.

[Trivial Psychic]

If the little issue that I brought up is intended to be rectified, is it possible to tack on another bit of a feature request?  I could foresee situations when a mission designer actually wants the cargo of a subsystem to be displayed to the pilot.  For example, I'm a pirate and there is a very large transport that I've disabled to capture specific cargo.  The transport has several different cargo bay subsystems, and I need to know which one has the cargo.  The question (if it is indeed feasible, relatively simple, and desirable), is whether to make it a checkbox in the ships' initial status, or activate it on a per-subsystem basis, with a checkbox next to the cargo description window.

[Goober5000]

There's a set-cargo-known sexp.  It would be fairly easy to derive a set-subsystem-cargo-known sexp from that.

Actually, the sexp is set-scanned, and it already supports subsystems.

[Trivial Psychic]

Actually, the sexp is set-scanned, and it already supports subsystems.

Is this in response to my request for displayed subsystem cargo content, or to the non-standard-subsystems-not-scanable thing?

[Goober5000]

Your most recent post besides that one.  The one where you asked about making subsystems cargo visible without having to scan it.

[Trivial Psychic]

The one where you asked about making subsystems cargo visible without having to scan it.

Actually, I meant that you can bring up its content via scanning just like with transports or cargo.  Right now, for subsystems (IIRC) you can only have "not scanned" and "scanned".  You can't have "not scanned" turn into "spare fighter parts" or whatever, once scanned.  Am I right about that?