[Ravenholme]

There's very little that legitimately pisses me off or even strongly irritates me anymore.

Blaming religion for the stupid things people do is one of them, and I hardly consider myself religious anymore.  All it does is hand wave the root cause of the problem, e.g. people being dickwads with "oh, it's because they're religious."  No, that's not why they're dickwads.  People are dickwads irresepctive of faith or religion or anything else, otherwise there would never be any dickwad non-religious people.

tl;dr people are dicks, religion doesn't cause that.

Thank you Scotty.

Exact same boat as you, and I couldn't agree more.

[karajorma]

Blaming religion for the stupid things people do is one of them, and I hardly consider myself religious anymore.  All it does is hand wave the root cause of the problem, e.g. people being dickwads with "oh, it's because they're religious."  No, that's not why they're dickwads.  People are dickwads irresepctive of faith or religion or anything else, otherwise there would never be any dickwad non-religious people.

While you are for the most part correct you've forgotten something. Religion is an active force against self correction that doesn't exist for any other case of dickwaddery. Unlike almost every other type of idiocy there is no amount of evidence you can rub in the face of a religious zealot that will ever convince them that they might be wrong. Their ****ed up belief that a supernatural deity is telling them to do something that wrong-headed is always going to trump anything you can try to rationally convince them of.

Religion might not make these people into dicks but it does play a very big role in preventing them from ever stopping being dicks.

[Ravenholme]

Blaming religion for the stupid things people do is one of them, and I hardly consider myself religious anymore.  All it does is hand wave the root cause of the problem, e.g. people being dickwads with "oh, it's because they're religious."  No, that's not why they're dickwads.  People are dickwads irresepctive of faith or religion or anything else, otherwise there would never be any dickwad non-religious people.

While you are for the most part correct you've forgotten something. Religion is an active force against self correction that doesn't exist for any other case of dickwaddery.

Going to disagree with you, this exists in everything. You can have people who will not listen to facts that contradict any viewpoint they take. They're surprisingly common. Oft times it has nothing to do with Religion.

That's just fanaticism, it's incredibly common and not unique to religion.

[General Battuta]

Blaming religion for the stupid things people do is one of them, and I hardly consider myself religious anymore.  All it does is hand wave the root cause of the problem, e.g. people being dickwads with "oh, it's because they're religious."  No, that's not why they're dickwads.  People are dickwads irresepctive of faith or religion or anything else, otherwise there would never be any dickwad non-religious people.

While you are for the most part correct you've forgotten something. Religion is an active force against self correction that doesn't exist for any other case of dickwaddery.

Going to disagree with you, this exists in everything. You can have people who will not listen to facts that contradict any viewpoint they take. They're surprisingly common. Oft times it has nothing to do with Religion.

That's just fanaticism, it's incredibly common and not unique to religion.

It's not even fanaticism, it's pretty much a core component of human cognition.

[Ravenholme]

Blaming religion for the stupid things people do is one of them, and I hardly consider myself religious anymore.  All it does is hand wave the root cause of the problem, e.g. people being dickwads with "oh, it's because they're religious."  No, that's not why they're dickwads.  People are dickwads irresepctive of faith or religion or anything else, otherwise there would never be any dickwad non-religious people.

While you are for the most part correct you've forgotten something. Religion is an active force against self correction that doesn't exist for any other case of dickwaddery.

Going to disagree with you, this exists in everything. You can have people who will not listen to facts that contradict any viewpoint they take. They're surprisingly common. Oft times it has nothing to do with Religion.

That's just fanaticism, it's incredibly common and not unique to religion.

It's not even fanaticism, it's pretty much a core component of human cognition.

Yeah, that's more accurate.

[Grizzly]

and in ~4.5 billion years it will utterly scorch the surface of the earth.

In 1 - 2 billion years it will ensure that the stratosphere warms up so much that all the water we have escapes into space.

[karajorma]

That's just fanaticism, it's incredibly common and not unique to religion.

I'm not implying it's unique. I'm implying it's worse.

Unlike the other forms there is no reason to ever check if you're wrong.

[Ravenholme]

That's just fanaticism, it's incredibly common and not unique to religion.

I'm not implying it's unique. I'm implying it's worse.

Unlike the other forms there is no reason to ever check if you're wrong.

That's a very fine distinction though between having reason (Which will be ignored) and not having reason to check.

So, no, I'd argue that it's not actually any worse.

[achtung]

Here's a fun idea, let us compile a list of things religious people are supposed to hate (or have a distaste for), versus what atheists and agnostics are supposed to hate. I wonder; who would have the longer list?

Let's stick with Abrahamic beliefs, since they are the most prominent in the western world.

I'll start with a few things commonly despise among Abrahamic faiths, and others can contribute as we continue.

Homosexuals
Non-believers (most prominently islam)
Women (considered of lower value)
Children (considered of lower value)
Pre-marital sex
Contraceptives


Please contribute.

[General Battuta]

Here's a fun idea, let us compile a list of things religious people are supposed to hate (or have a distaste for), versus what atheists and agnostics are supposed to hate. I wonder; who would have the longer list?

Let's stick with Abrahamic beliefs, since they are the most prominent in the western world.

I'll start with a few things commonly despise among Abrahamic faiths, and others can contribute as we continue.

Homosexuals
Non-believers (most prominently islam)
Women (considered of lower value)
Children (considered of lower value)
Pre-marital sex
Contraceptives


Please contribute.

Just going to amend your list to restrict it to the items that all religious people agree they should hate


okay done, it's right there

[achtung]

Here's a fun idea, let us compile a list of things religious people are supposed to hate (or have a distaste for), versus what atheists and agnostics are supposed to hate. I wonder; who would have the longer list?

Let's stick with Abrahamic beliefs, since they are the most prominent in the western world.

I'll start with a few things commonly despise among Abrahamic faiths, and others can contribute as we continue.

Homosexuals
Non-believers (most prominently islam)
Women (considered of lower value)
Children (considered of lower value)
Pre-marital sex
Contraceptives


Please contribute.

Just going to amend your list to restrict it to the items that all religious people agree they should hate


okay done, it's right there

So according to their doctrines, they are supposed to have no opinion on any of that?

[Polpolion]

you seem to be deluded into thinking there is only one religion

edit:

Non-believers (most prominently islam)

...? Here you are promoting intolerance of religion because they are intolerant of other religions?

[General Battuta]

Here's a fun idea, let us compile a list of things religious people are supposed to hate (or have a distaste for), versus what atheists and agnostics are supposed to hate. I wonder; who would have the longer list?

Let's stick with Abrahamic beliefs, since they are the most prominent in the western world.

I'll start with a few things commonly despise among Abrahamic faiths, and others can contribute as we continue.

Homosexuals
Non-believers (most prominently islam)
Women (considered of lower value)
Children (considered of lower value)
Pre-marital sex
Contraceptives


Please contribute.

Just going to amend your list to restrict it to the items that all religious people agree they should hate


okay done, it's right there

So according to their doctrines, they are supposed to have no opinion on any of that?

According to 'their' doctrines 'they' are like a couple billion people who can't agree on any ****ing thing because they are a couple billion people

I am extraordinarily suspicious of anyone who enters a debate about something as complex and personal as religion by referencing a shadowy 'they' that uniformly believes one thing. And you're doing it to prove that your ingroup is better than that outgroup, too!

**** I'm the biggest ****ing atheist but I understand human cognition enough to know that you should never trust anyone's opinion unless they can argue both sides of an issue. There are just too many heuristic traps to rely on an assessment as simplistic as 'let's make a list of all the ways WE are better than THEM (they are all the same by the way guys)'

[deathfun]

Abortion

I noticed this wasn't on the list of things religious people agree they should hate

I'm sure they're out there, those who believe in God but agree to abortion, but I've only ever come across the ones who argue their side quoting religious reasons.

[Enzo03]

Surely not all religions are against it?

And I find people from all sorts of different groups or beliefs whom are against abortion.  Those whom are not doing it for religious reasons use moral reasons - based on their morals, that is.

[Polpolion]

Abortion

I noticed this wasn't on the list of things religious people agree they should hate

ok

I'm sure they're out there, those who believe in God but agree to abortion

there you go that's why

[deathfun]

What can I say Pol. I can't leave the 20% out of any discussion, I'm Canadian

[achtung]

You both missed the biggest issue with my first post, trying to compare what I seem to assume is a semi-organized belief system to atheism/agnosticism is foolish at best.

This is a mistake, but I'll bite.

you seem to be deluded into thinking there is only one religion

edit:

Non-believers (most prominently islam)

...? Here you are promoting intolerance of religion because they are intolerant of other religions?

What do you meet such intolerance with? Organized religion has quite the history of forced conversion, under penalty of death. I feel very little tolerance for that. Turning the other cheek only works under certain odd conditions.

According to 'their' doctrines 'they' are like a couple billion people who can't agree on any ****ing thing because they are a couple billion people

I am extraordinarily suspicious of anyone who enters a debate about something as complex and personal as religion by referencing a shadowy 'they' that uniformly believes one thing. And you're doing it to prove that your ingroup is better than that outgroup, too!

**** I'm the biggest ****ing atheist but I understand human cognition enough to know that you should never trust anyone's opinion unless they can argue both sides of an issue. There are just too many heuristic traps to rely on an assessment as simplistic as 'let's make a list of all the ways WE are better than THEM (they are all the same by the way guys)'

I can argue your side much more easily, but I felt like I'd play around with this a little.

I was whipping those lines out on my phone during my lunch break, I apologize for the use of that unspecific language, the iPhone keyboard sucks. Let's limit our frame to organized, fundamentalist viewpoints of the big three Abrahamic belief systems (Judaism, Islam, Christianity). The people in the article acted much as I expect a more (not necessarily hard-line) modern fundamentalist Christian group would. How would you describe the viewpoints of these three large fundamentalist groups?

Now, to clarify my viewpoint on this matter further; I am arguing that these belief systems act as force multipliers for extreme intolerant tendencies. They provide a catalyst by creating bogeymen, scapegoats, and belittled groups. History is littered with examples of other groups doing this very thing, but the only beliefs that ride alongside religion, that I can think of, are racial identity and national identity. I don't think those two are good bros to be hanging with. The scary part of all three are the blind unquestioning faith that they seed in individuals.

For the sake of this argument, lets not look at resource limitations as a source of intolerant and violent behavior. There's a difference between mass killings and forced conversions because someone thinks differently, and between two groups starving to death.

[Polpolion]

These belief systems act as force multipliers for extreme intolerant tendencies.

you got it backwards

edit:

What do you meet such intolerance with? Organized religion has quite the history of forced conversion, under penalty of death. I feel very little tolerance for that. Turning the other cheek only works under certain odd conditions.

you'd have a hard time convincing me that holy wars are more than politics disguised with god, and individuals that actually kill people for the sole reason of them refusing to convert to a different religion are such a small minority of religious people that I'd think you can safely ignore them when making statements about the group.

edit2: though as you mention the differences between state and religion when dealing with intolerance isn't actually important. what is important is that stereotypes, prejudices, and intolerance arise naturally because of the way people work. a better discussion to have would be on to what extent those prejudices affect people's behaviour towards other groups when the groups are arbitrarily separated. this is important because the practical differences in the way people act towards other groups don't have much to do with either centralized religion or politics. I would argue that the way people respond to other groups is a little dependent on genetics and mostly dependent on the environment in which you were raised. religion and politics can play a role in the environment you are raised in but you are not going to have a uniform environment across populations, even if religious beliefs and public policy are uniform (which they are not).

[achtung]

These belief systems act as force multipliers for extreme intolerant tendencies.

you got it backwards

edit:

What do you meet such intolerance with? Organized religion has quite the history of forced conversion, under penalty of death. I feel very little tolerance for that. Turning the other cheek only works under certain odd conditions.

you'd have a hard time convincing me that holy wars are more than politics disguised with god, and individuals that actually kill people for the sole reason of them refusing to convert to a different religion are such a small minority of religious people that I'd think you can safely ignore them when making statements about the group.

1. Then it could still just be a system created by crazies that helps other crazies act crazier. That doesn't make it alright.

2. Regardless of its "higher purpose", it can still be hijacked to use its followers' blind faith to achieve murderous and horrible goals.