[Akalabeth Angel]

I don't get redoing models that have already been done when there are some models which have never been done, but anyway. People are free to direct their efforts how they wish

Believe it or not, there's actually other people making models aside from myself, and most of the ships have been upgraded or are in the process of being upgraded already

Believe it or not I've looked at the "status" post and I know that other models are being worked on and some are not being worked on at all. A good dozen of them. Of course some of them are dead boring but some of them are not.

As for the model itself, there's obviously some good work put into it and some very nice details though I would agree with the sentiment that it's a bit too rounded. HTL for FS2 retail ships should in my mind be about increasing detail not redesign because if you do redesign, then I believe you sorta need to redesign everything. It's like the new star trek movie, the new enterprise was obviously similar to the old one but was essentially a new redesign. And to make that design work they made an entirely new fleet to go along side it. Point is, the FS1 terrans are boxy, generally ugly ships. If you want them more rounded, the whole fleet should become more rounded.

I'm doing this Leviathan in the exact same style I've done the Medusa, am doing the Apollo, and Ursa.

Yeah, that's cool and I respect that view point.
Though personally as an artist I would disagree with the approach. I think if a person chooses to make their contribution by updating existing canon designs they should work within the confines of the established aesthetic and not take too many artistic liberties. To me it seems more like a service, wherein an artist devotes time and effort to improve upon what has already come before instead of using the opportunity to change it in a manner they see fit. If an artist wishes to share their original vision it should be confined to new, custom-designed ships.

And all that being said I know this isn't the first example and it certainly won't be the last, I know the original HTL deimos had me rolling my eyes when I saw these huge pipes near the rear engines. It's like what is that stuff?

But anyway, that's all I'll say about that.

If he were redesigning the Fenris I'd be screaming bloody murder right along with you, but I think you have the wrong analogy here. It should be Fenris:Leviathan::NCC-1701:Refit. The original Levi was indistinguishable from the Fenris, which just about everyone agrees should be changed. The recolor was a cheap but powerful change. The most recent edit, adding armor plates, made a certain amount of sense but covered up some of the ship's more interesting details. You can quibble about the details, but a certain amount of redesign is necessary.

It wasn't necessaryin FS1 to have a separate mesh for two different ships and it's not particularly necessary now I woudl argue. It's desirable perhaps, in the view of some people. But necessary? No. Even so, my main quibble is that it seems to take liberties with teh FS1 utilitarian aesthetic. To meit seems as though it would fit better as a reconstruction period upgrade to existing designs

[Hades]

It wasn't necessaryin FS1 to have a separate mesh for two different ships and it's not particularly necessary now I woudl argue. It's desirable perhaps, in the view of some people. But necessary? No. Even so, my main quibble is that it seems to take liberties with teh FS1 utilitarian aesthetic. To meit seems as though it would fit better as a reconstruction period upgrade to existing designs

The reason was lack of time, it's the same reason the Cain and Lilith share a model, which was NOT what they actually wanted iirc.

[Rga_Noris]

We've been over this a hundred times: The FS games are too old to ever possibly display what V would have done. You can keep the general shape, but that's about it. Aside from that, it is absolutely impossible to truly say what V would have done, because they did not have the technology to do it.

The FSU also suffers from DNF syndrome. People have been imagining what these ships should look like for years, and no model will ever match what they have in their heads. It's also frusterating when non-HTLers (NOTE: did not say modellers) pop in and tell us what should be done... Go check the Sobek thread. Someone requested that I make the head a solid pece of armor and at the same time add a crescent shaped gap in the middle... The brain, when never practically applied, can easily make mpossible expectations.

[Raven2001]

We've been over this a hundred times: The FS games are too old to ever possibly display what V would have done. You can keep the general shape, but that's about it. Aside from that, it is absolutely impossible to truly say what V would have done, because they did not have the technology to do it.

I've read this argument a thounsand times already, and it always fails to convince me. To be honest it sounds like a poor excuse to give yourself (not you specifically, but some modelers in general) carte blanche to do whatever you want when HTLing ships (which you can anyway, it's your work after all).

Yeah no one can predict what they had done if they had more "tech", but I think it is a disservice to V's artists to say that they did what they did because of tech issues:
They stretched to the limit the tools that they had, and it shows in their work that they had something very specific in mind, in terms of both style and details. It was a very smart work. Their tile work is very well thought of in most ships (I touched on this regarding your Rakshasa, but of course it was rebuked with the same comment that you make here), the way they manipulate the textures they have to hint at more advanced designs is masterfull. The same can be said in terms of their poly work (its amazing the difference that moving a couple of vertices around can have, in terms of the shape you are going to perceive, when you have a limited number of polys to work with).
Amazing artists to say the least.


Not all is bad things: you mentioned the Hatshepsut before, as being a good example of how good things can turn out when you release yourself from the "cannon stigma". And I agree! The Hatshepsut is a great HTL of the original. But ironically, I find it is very connected to what it was before: you kept\expanded on the ribbing on the lower section, the neck, and all the other parts that were very iconical of the Hatshepsut. It also feels FS2 era Vasudan.
And on top of all that its a Destroyer, which means that due to the technical constraints you mention all the time, it would be natural that it would leave a lot more to the imagination.

There's other great examples: VA's HTL jobs are always great, the current Deimos (although its a bit dated), the Cain (with the exception of the teardrop instead of the iconic pentagon), the majority if not all of the incoming shivan fighters.

I don't think the mindset to go is "The FS games are too old to ever possibly display what V would have done", but rather "Ok V did this, let me observe very thoroughly and then figure out why they did it like this".

Like I mentioned before in this post, people can do whatever they want with their work. And I actually give you guys a lot of credit for what you do.

[Rodo]

(which you can anyway, it's your work after all).

I stopped reading after this, there nothing more to say or argue about.

[Luis Dias]

It's all a matter of taste... I always thought that the Leviathan was one of those ships that didn't need a better version, but hey. However given that it is Hades doing it, I'm betting it will take so long that it won't make a big difference anyway ar ar ar ar.

[mjn.mixael]

Stop debating HTLing methods in topics about a specific model. As we've said so many times... if you don't like a model, make your own. FSU will use whichever the community votes is best.

[Rga_Noris]

Yeah no one can predict what they had done if they had more "tech", but I think it is a disservice to V's artists to say that they did what they did because of tech issues:
They stretched to the limit the tools that they had, and it shows in their work that they had something very specific in mind, in terms of both style and details. It was a very smart work. Their tile work is very well thought of in most ships (I touched on this regarding your Rakshasa, but of course it was rebuked with the same comment that you make here), the way they manipulate the textures they have to hint at more advanced designs is masterfull. The same can be said in terms of their poly work (its amazing the difference that moving a couple of vertices around can have, in terms of the shape you are going to perceive, when you have a limited number of polys to work with).
Amazing artists to say the least.

This is where it gets fuzzy... I do not doubt that V has talent, but you have no objective way to make the above claims. Sure, V may have done some things for a reason, and they DID do somethings due to a poly limit... which is which is impossible to determine. Your best bet is to maintain the general shape and add details that make sense.

Also, to assume that poly limits were not a primary driver in the design of ships for that era is a little naive. Now, I'm NOT saying that V wanted the hex shape on the Cain to be a circle, but that's as close as they could come... what I am saying is that V may have gone with a hex design because 1) It looks good, and 2) It fits in the poly budget. We do not have to worry as much about number 2 anymore, so varying from the retail needs to happen.

The Hatty works because it varies A LOT from the original. Take a look at it, especially the bottom... it oozes artistic license. Ragingloli (btw, I got it in game and turreted it, but detail0 credit goes to him) did an awesome job that could not have been accomplished if we followed the constraints that some of the community wishes us to follow.

Also, if all we did was flesh out designs that V already put in place, then we would be at the same crossroads with the purist because it would not be how *they* thought it should be fleshed out.

I welcome suggestions... on the Rak I made adjustments based on feedback, and even PM'ed people who gave it why I was going the direction I was. Just understand that whenever you beat the ol' V-would-not-have-done-that drum, you have no evidence to support that in the slightest.

[Akalabeth Angel]

We've been over this a hundred times: The FS games are too old to ever possibly display what V would have done. You can keep the general shape, but that's about it. Aside from that, it is absolutely impossible to truly say what V would have done, because they did not have the technology to do it.

It's not about what volition could have done it's about what volition DID do.
As I've stated above, I find that when a person does an HTL model it's about providing a service to the community, it's not a place to showcase personal artistic tastes. To my way of thinking there's an unspoken obligation to follow as close as possible to the original Volition vision. Not what you think their intent was, not what you think they would have done had they done it now, but what they did do with existing technology.

To take liberties with a design is to my mind to take advantage of the media vps in order to get your artistic vision to as wide as possible an audience as possible. And in that regard, it's self-serving not serving the needs of the community which is what the upgrade project should be about. If people want to showcase their creativity do so in a third party campaign with a new ship.


And yes, if I don't like I model I should just do one of my own but I know from experience that my strongest suit is never the details.  In any design or any drawing I've done I've usually done good with the basic shape but once I hit the details I jump the shark (just like the fonze). So, until I overcome that shortcoming I'm not going to contribute to a project which is all about adding details.

And even if I did choose to contribute, my desire would not be to get into a competition or a popularity contest with another modeller. It would be as I said to provide a service and in that regard I would pick up one of the ignored projects not try to re-invent the wheel or fix what isn't broken.

(And yes I did I say I was done in my previous message, but since this thread has been split and is no longer raining directly on Hades' parade I cansay a little more).

[Hades]

To take liberties with a design is to my mind to take advantage of the media vps in order to get your artistic vision to as wide as possible an audience as possible.

You make it sound as if we have some sort of agenda, I daresay even perhaps demonizing us.

[Black Wolf]

To take liberties with a design is to my mind to take advantage of the media vps in order to get your artistic vision to as wide as possible an audience as possible.

You make it sound as if we have some sort of agenda, I daresay even perhaps demonizing us.

I doubt that was the intention. More likely a comment on the special position the MediaVPs have as technically non-canon, but near universal elements of FS2 in 2011.

[Ulala]

I don't see all the time and work these people are contributing (for free) to make one of our favorite games look kickass as self-serving at all.

[Luis Dias]

I don't see all the time and work these people are contributing (for free) to make one of our favorite games look kickass as self-serving at all.

Yeah.

[Rga_Noris]

Akalabeth Angel, I must say that your post is totally off. Your rules for HTLing would limit us to rounding up retail models. You said, very literally, that we should not do what we think would have done, but what V did do.
If we only did that, then many ships could only be rounded off, with a few being able to have details as implied by their textures. Would you suggest I model in the details of a tile mapped ship? Just 'tile' geometery across the ship? Of course you wouldn't, it would look stupid.

So to some extent, we absolutely MUST attempt to predict what would have happened if V had our technology. How much we predict is up to the artist, but it still needs to be done.

Oh, and +1 to you being a total asshat by saying us spending hours of our freetime modelling, texturing, and tolerating unappreciative forumites is self-serving.

EDIT:
Also, look at professional examples. Look at the differences from DOOM 2's enemies to their upgrade in DOOM 3. Or Duke3D to DNF. Or the vortigaunts from Half-Life to HL2. Or Lara Croft from the original Tomb Raider to the more recent releases. They all feature major details either changed, added, or removed from their previous iterations with no sign that they were ever intended to look that way. The developer had new tech available and just plain used it, as fleshing out details from the old version would not have yielded anything worthwhile.

[General Battuta]

Hey here is a good heuristic for you guys to apply:

If the person talking doesn't do anything related to what you're doing, ignore them and do whatever the **** you want

[Rga_Noris]

If the person talking doesn't do anything related to what you're doing, ignore them and do whatever the **** you want

Solid advice.

[Raven2001]

This is where it gets fuzzy... I do not doubt that V has talent, but you have no objective way to make the above claims. Sure, V may have done some things for a reason, and they DID do somethings due to a poly limit... which is which is impossible to determine. Your best bet is to maintain the general shape and add details that make sense.

Also, to assume that poly limits were not a primary driver in the design of ships for that era is a little naive. Now, I'm NOT saying that V wanted the hex shape on the Cain to be a circle, but that's as close as they could come... what I am saying is that V may have gone with a hex design because 1) It looks good, and 2) It fits in the poly budget. We do not have to worry as much about number 2 anymore, so varying from the retail needs to happen.

I don't think I was clear on what I was trying to say, so I'll try again
I'm not defending a view of "we can't\can predict what V would have done". Rather I'm defending a way that is "ok this is what they ended up with".
It is obvious that their end result is dictated by the possibilities they had back then. It always is. The process always stamps itself on the end product.
However, whatever the reasons, the fact is the Cain ended up with a pentagon on the side, which is, no matter how you like it, a strong design element (I mean in the visual perception way of things, not taste). The same can be said about the Rakshasas repeated ribbing on the front and back sections, or the hatshepsut's neck, the Sobek's horizontal rythm on the neck and pink "stuff", or the hecate's "face", among other things.
And the same logic applies in terms of texturing: I think I mentioned before that I'm displeased with some shivan ship's lack of contrast in the greys that were present in the originals.
I also see some ships having uber clean textures, when FS's style is clearly very "grungy" and dirty.

And I really believe those elements should be respected. And some times they are, even with added "artistic liberties":

The Hatty works because it varies A LOT from the original. Take a look at it, especially the bottom... it oozes artistic license. Ragingloli (btw, I got it in game and turreted it, but detail0 credit goes to him) did an awesome job that could not have been accomplished if we followed the constraints that some of the community wishes us to follow.

Of course it varies a lot fromt the original, but it also follows very closely the original's visual rythms, and THAT is why it works so well.

Also, if all we did was flesh out designs that V already put in place, then we would be at the same crossroads with the purist because it would not be how *they* thought it should be fleshed out.

Please don't mistake me for a "purist". I am not. I'm all for artistic license, within proper boundaries (explained above).

I welcome suggestions... on the Rak I made adjustments based on feedback, and even PM'ed people who gave it why I was going the direction I was. Just understand that whenever you beat the ol' V-would-not-have-done-that drum, you have no evidence to support that in the slightest.

Don't take what I say as a personal attack on you or your work. It isn't.
And like mentioned before: agreed, I have no evidence to support what V wouldn't or would have done. That's why I think its imperative that we respect what is.

[Rga_Noris]

Okay, I see where you are coming from.

[Crybertrance]

Another perspective on HTL'ing:

HTL = Harder To Lube

[LordPomposity]

Hi guys, I'm working on an HTL TC2. This is the general outline, I'll add details (read: greebles) later




Kidding aside, I suspect that if we imposed restrictions as severe as some people are suggesting and told people that if they were interested in artistic expression they should **** off from HTL and go make original models, we wouldn't have nearly as many HTL models as we do now.

Before anyone says that would be preferable, I'll point out that if you really think so and are not simply indulging in hyperbole you can go ahead and copy the retail .pofs into the /data/models folder of your mediavps directory. They'll override anything in the .vp archive.