Author Topic: Watched exactly enough Rambo  (Read 8178 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
That's how the law works - statutes are the final word until an appeals court (eventually the highest appeals court) agrees, adds nuance, or overturns them.  In the absence of an appellate court ruling, the statute applies.

And given that my entire point is that a appeals court would overturn any murder verdict, I fail to see how the onus isn't on you to prove it. You're attempting to claim that my opinion is incorrect, you can only do that by providing facts contrary to that opinion. So the onus is on you to prove that such a conviction has

1) Ever been secured.
2) Survived an appeal.

You are failing to understand how the legal process works, apparently.

When a statute is written by legislators, the written meaning of that statute becomes law.  The only means the written meaning of that law can change is by:
1.  An amendment by the legislative body.
2.  A court interpretation of the law that clarifies ambiguities open to interpretation.
3.  A court rejection of the law based on constitutional or common law grounds where the statute, as written, violates codified legal rights.

In the absence of an appellate court decision that applies points 2 or 3, the statute stands precisely as written.

Now, if you want to assert that the statute does not stand as written and a conviction would not survive an appeal, you are the one making the claim that is unsubstantiated in law.  That means that you have an obligation to back up your assertion by finding an appellate decision that substantiates your point.

Under no circumstances do I have to prove there isn't one (not to mention the silliness to trying to tell me to disprove the existence of something that may not exist).  If a defense attorney or an accused wanted to argue the application is invalid, they would have to do exactly what you have to do - prove the statute as written is invalid.

If your point is that a court would overturn the verdict, as you've stated (with no grounds other than a mistaken interpretation of "spirit" and "letter" - for that argument to apply, one would have to show that legislators did not intend for first-degree murder convictions to result in this case, which would require a statement of intent in the legislation itself), the obligation is on you to show the grounds under which it would do so.  You are pulling a luis and making claims about how a process works without backing it up.  I have nothing to back up in this scenario - the statute applies unless a person challenging i (i.e. you) can prove it doesn't.

EDIT:  And no, I am not spending my time researching appellate decisions for you.  If you want to assert this would not survive an appeal, the onus is on you to show why that is the case - this is how Common Law systems work.  I look forward to seeing the evidence used to back up your claims thus far in this thread.

EDIT2:  And while I remember, so long as a statute is codified in law, it is not necessary to show a conviction has ever been secured under it to prove it valid.  If a law is on the books and has not been amended, repealed, or interpreted by case law, it can be used as a valid charge without any sort of precedent whatsoever.  So no, I don't have to prove a conviction has been secured, either.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 01:24:08 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
As far as I'm concerned you're the one asking me to prove a negative. If a conviction has been secured under similar conditions that should be easy to find. But this could easily be the first time someone has been prosecuted under these circumstances meaning that the law is untested and there are no previous cases. Basically when it comes to convictions you could very easily be asking me to prove a negative.

If neither of us is willing to do the work, we're basically going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Offline redsniper

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
agree to disagree

I don't think you can do that on HLP. At least, I've never seen it happen before.
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Offline LordMelvin

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
http://abcnews.go.com/US/oklahoma-pharmacist-dead-robbers-accomplices-life-prison/story?id=14053802#.Two-dOSDiCI

Here's an example of someone being prosecuted for murder when their accomplice in an armed robbery was killed during the commission.

TL;DR - three dudes try to hold up a pharmacist. It's Oklahoma, though, so the pharmacist is armed and shoots the first one to point a gun at him in the head. The other two freak and run. The pharmacist dude then gets a different gun and coup-de-graces the downed perp. Five times. All three surviving dudes are convicted of murder, the two surviving perps for participating in armed robbery resulting in a death, and the pharmacist for going back and shooting the guy once he was down.

Notable, for Oklahoma, nobody involved got the death penalty. Oklahoma does that to people a lot.

This lines up with the young widow scenario in all respects but one: she (reportedly, I wasn't there, I didn't see, I don't know, but it sure seems to be the case...) didn't shoot the guy again. As such, she only acted in self defense, and is probably completely in the clear legally, though her homeowners insurance rates may spike a bit.

For the record, I googled for less than five minutes. Please at least pretend to do research next time. Seriously, googling 'Oklahoma self-defense murder accomplice robbery' brought it up on the first page or so.
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
agree to disagree

I don't think you can do that on HLP. At least, I've never seen it happen before.

at least someone has tried now.  we're making progress.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
Damn! American law is more ****ed up than I'd realised!
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
yes why don't we just adopt british law?

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
yes why don't we just adopt british law?

Probably because it works in the exact same fashion as described by MP-Ryan for American law, as common law as a system originated in the Britain in the middle ages and is still practiced there and pretty much everywhere that owes anything to that country in terms of government.

So you see, not only has demonstrated he doesn't understand how the American legal system works, he doesn't get his own. And then asks us to do his research for him.

(Hint, that's why it was fallacious. You made an extraordinary claim, Karaj, which was that you understood how US legal systems and common law actually worked when it has been incumbent upon us for the second thread in a row to explain these things to you.)
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
As far as I'm concerned you're the one asking me to prove a negative. If a conviction has been secured under similar conditions that should be easy to find. But this could easily be the first time someone has been prosecuted under these circumstances meaning that the law is untested and there are no previous cases. Basically when it comes to convictions you could very easily be asking me to prove a negative.

If neither of us is willing to do the work, we're basically going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

If the law is untested, then the scenario as I've described it holds true - as I already explained, precedent is not required to secure a conviction under a written statute.  If the law had been overturned on appeal, it would have been repealed or amended (and as the quote I posted is on the books at present, that isn't the case).

Regardless, for your point - that a conviction would be overturned on appeal or never obtained - to hold true, there must either be precedent established in case law that interprets the written statute, which you should be attempting to find in order to back up your claim, or you own a crystal ball that is tapped into the Oklahoman legal system.  I find the latter scenario unlikely.

Frankly, I haven't just let this go because you rightly hound the usual suspects around here for making a claim and then failing to back up their assertion, and you have just done the same thing yourself.  If you want to say that a conviction would never be obtained or would be overturned that is your choice, but you had best be able to back up that claim if you're going to argue that the statutory application of the law is not valid.  There is no agree to disagree here, unfortunately - either you back up your "point," or you concede that you are presenting your personal opinion without any supporting evidence.  No further evidence for my position - that the charge is valid and a conviction is entirely possible if not likely based on Oklahoma's definition of the offence of first-degree murder - is necessary as I have already posted the exact wording of the statute and a simplified explanation of how the sections are legally read.

Not agreeing to disagree may sound obstinate on my part, but I am a firm believer that if you hold other people to a standard - that opinion claims must be either stated as such or backed up with supporting evidence - then you should do the same with yourself.  kara, sorry, but in this thread you have not been doing so.
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Offline LordMelvin

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
Damn! American law is more ****ed up than I'd realised!
I've got three words for you: British Libel "Law."

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« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 10:18:21 pm by LordMelvin »
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
MP-Ryan and NGTM-1R, do you actually agree with the charge of murder or are you just pointing out that it has legal precedent/related law?

Because to me it seems stupid that he be accused of murder. I mean, I could buy him being charged with attempted murder of the woman and infant, but his own accomplice's death?

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Watched exactly enough Rambo
MP-Ryan and NGTM-1R, do you actually agree with the charge of murder or are you just pointing out that it has legal precedent/related law?

Because to me it seems stupid that he be accused of murder. I mean, I could buy him being charged with attempted murder of the woman and infant, but his own accomplice's death?

I'm pointing out that the charge is valid and a conviction should be expected.

As far as my opinion on the definition of murder goes, I do not agree with how Oklahoma has defined it (deaths which are criminal but not intended are typically manslaughter in most places), but my opinion has zero bearing on both the charge and likelihood of conviction in the case.  We can all rant and rave until we're blue in the face that charging the guy with murder is excessive, but our opinions (unless anyone here is an Oklahoman of voting age or appellate court judge) count for precisely squat.

In the absence of collective irrelevant outrage, we have only the facts that the charge is legal and, given the evidence available just in the media, a conviction is exceedingly likely unless the prosecutor is incompetent.
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