Author Topic: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.  (Read 16743 times)

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Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Here is the Foreign Policy article

I find the whole story rather weird. The USA is Isreal's biggest ally, why risk detoriating the alliance to gain another ally? I fail to see the strategic value in this. But then again, I also fail to see why Israel is so upset about Iran lately. Even if they ever get a nuke, MAD is still in effect...
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 05:58:36 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
I guess that cost/benefit analysis was in favor of that move. I'm sure that they had an explanation prepared in case US found out.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Here is the Foreign Policy article

I find the whole story rather weird. The USA is Isreal's biggest ally, why risk detoriating the alliance to gain another ally? I fail to see the strategic value in this. But then again, I also fail to see why Israel is so upset about Iran lately. Even if they ever get a nuke, MAD is still in effect...

MAD won't deter people who sincerely believe that if they die in a war with 'infidels', that their eternal fate is then secured in heaven (with 72 virgins, yada yada), and who have been trained since being able to comprehend speech that Israel / USA are enemies who only want to take over all that belongs to them / kill their family / etc, etc.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
probably because the US wouldn't actually care.
this also gives the US an out if it's ever found out doing something unsavory, it could disown whoever was in charge and claim it was actually mossad agents.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Mossad has historically shown they don't give a flying **** who they offend among their allies.  Look at the passports used during that assassination in Bahrain not long ago.  This isn't exactly surprising, and despite maybe annoying the US slightly, lasting repercussions aren't on the table.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Even if they ever get a nuke, MAD is still in effect...

MAD makes an assumption the other guy does not want to die. What makes Iran (and North Korea) so disturbing a prospect with nuclear arms is that they do not understand us and we do not understand them enough to be sure their leadership doesn't want to die and hence be sure that MAD actually works.
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Offline Turambar

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Even if they ever get a nuke, MAD is still in effect...

MAD makes an assumption the other guy does not want to die. What makes Iran (and North Korea) so disturbing a prospect with nuclear arms is that they do not understand us and we do not understand them enough to be sure their leadership doesn't want to die and hence be sure that MAD actually works.
Here is the Foreign Policy article

I find the whole story rather weird. The USA is Isreal's biggest ally, why risk detoriating the alliance to gain another ally? I fail to see the strategic value in this. But then again, I also fail to see why Israel is so upset about Iran lately. Even if they ever get a nuke, MAD is still in effect...

MAD won't deter people who sincerely believe that if they die in a war with 'infidels', that their eternal fate is then secured in heaven (with 72 virgins, yada yada), and who have been trained since being able to comprehend speech that Israel / USA are enemies who only want to take over all that belongs to them / kill their family / etc, etc.

Looks like the propaganda's working, guys
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Offline jr2

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Wat?

 
Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
If Turambar is saying what I think he is saying, then I agree with him. Iran's and NK's leaders are not people who are commited to leadership in order to carry out an ideology. They simply use an ideology to stay in power. Usually, getting nuked is an awfull way to stay in power.

The idea that Iran and NK are insane ideologists is usually stressed by some other nations who then use it as an excuse to exercise more power in those regions. Hence Turambar's propaganda remark.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 03:06:32 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
As far as I can tell the current leadership of both countries has no actual interest in nuking anyone. They simply like to look like they might in order to get concessions/piss people off.
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Offline Bob-san

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
As far as I can tell the current leadership of both countries has no actual interest in nuking anyone. They simply like to look like they might in order to get concessions/piss people off.
Seems more like, to me, that both countries leaders want nuclear weapons to protect their regimes from foreign intervention. Just look at how we deal with Pakistan versus how we dealt with Iraq, Afghanistan, or Libya.
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Offline stinkyFeet

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Usually, getting nuked is an awfull way to stay in power.

Usually? Considering the number of countries nuked here:  Are you, by any chance, from Vasuda Prime? :p

The only country nuked here was Japan, and if I remember correctly, their governments continued well enough after they surrendered.

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Except for that stuff about MacArthur rewriting their constitution for them and us still having a military base there. Though yeah, they got better.
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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Usually, getting nuked is an awfull way to stay in power.

Usually? Considering the number of countries nuked here:  Are you, by any chance, from Vasuda Prime? :p

The only country nuked here was Japan, and if I remember correctly, their governments continued well enough after they surrendered.

They certainly did not continue on the same level though (Japan completely lost their sovereignity untill 1952, anda p perently much changed afterwards). MAD also wasn't in effect yet, and Japan certainly had a problem if the USA decided that they would hit Tokyo next (which they might just have considered if Japan had not surrendered, but I am not an expert on this period of history)

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
If Turambar is saying what I think he is saying, then I agree with him. Iran's and NK's leaders are not people who are commited to leadership in order to carry out an ideology.

This sounds pretty, but in the end, it's not sufficient. Hitler was committed to an ideology to maintain power, so he'd never do something like the Holocaust, right?

Right?

Uh-oh.

The ideology is existent and they claim to follow it and abandoning the ideology will abdicate their power as effectively as nuking someone. Moreso, really, since at least nuking someone will be proof they believe what they're saying, and both countries are in a position where their leadership needs to prove the sincerity of its belief and the truth of its causes to keep the population placated.

But this is actually not remotely relevant to what I was saying and neither you nor Turambar were perceptive enough to grasp that. Neither nation views reality through a similar enough lense to the one we have for there to be a surety on the other side's opinions, thoughts, and feelings. In saying they embrace ideology to maintain power, you are making a claim you are not able to support, because you can't simulate the thinking of Kim Jong Un or the Ayatollahs. Even if what you say is true, the possibility for serious miscommunication leading to someone thinking they have the green light is still unacceptably high. Saddam invaded Kuwait because he decided we'd let him and it took killing an awful lot of people to straighten the man out, and he was reasonably responsive and perceptive by our terms.
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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Quote
This sounds pretty, but in the end, it's not sufficient. Hitler was committed to an ideology to maintain power, so he'd never do something like the Holocaust, right?

The holocaust was a relatively unknown subject untill the US soldiers found those camps. The holocaust was directed against a minority of people and did not threaten the security of a country with nukes.

Quote
The ideology is existent and they claim to follow it and abandoning the ideology will abdicate their power as effectively as nuking someone.

How does not nuking Israel mean that Iran is abandoning its ideology? It has not nuked Israel for a while now, and nobody complained. Things like the sharia law still are in effect, i'd say that has more to do with their ideology...

Quote
But this is actually not remotely relevant to what I was saying and neither you nor Turambar were perceptive enough to grasp that. Neither nation views reality through a similar enough lense to the one we have for there to be a surety on the other side's opinions, thoughts, and feelings. In saying they embrace ideology to maintain power, you are making a claim you are not able to support, because you can't simulate the thinking of Kim Jong Un or the Ayatollahs.

So what you are saying is that because we don't really know what the other side might do, we should employ worst-case-scenario thinking? Why isn't the US then taking steps against Israel?

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
The holocaust was a relatively unknown subject untill the US soldiers found those camps.

False, for the record. The camps were know by at least 1944 as people who had escaped from them made it to England.

The holocaust was directed against a minority of people and did not threaten the security of a country with nukes.

Ah, to be young and naive and not consider the implications. (And a minority? Come now, huge cross-sections of Germany and Eastern Europe ended up in the camps, just most of them didn't die because they hadn't run out of Jews yet.)

Whole sections of Poland and the Ukraine were depopulated by the Germans. That's an attack on a nation state. (And then the Soviets depopulated others.) But really, drawing an artificial distinction between killing six million random people and killing six million people by nuking several cities is a bizarre, irrational one.

The will to do it is there. And the Holocaust, directing it and creating it and carrying it out, actually took a lot more people (though a lot less industrial capacity) than building an atomic bomb would. Killing six million people is practically an industry all its own, a significant commitment of state resources equivalent easily to small war.

How does not nuking Israel mean that Iran is abandoning its ideology? It has not nuked Israel for a while now, and nobody complained. Things like the sharia law still are in effect, i'd say that has more to do with their ideology...

Iran has never had the capability to destroy Israel before. But destroying Israel is one of the key tenants of their internal propaganda and their ideology. If they have the means and do not act, it signals they do not intend to carry through.

Iran is in much the same position the Soviet Union was. It had a revolution that promised people new and better things, a new and better government and a better life, if only they would unite. It didn't happen. They have now turned to the external enemy strategy, and say that these external forces bar the way and if you will back us we will destroy them.

But this only buys you time. You have to eventually do it, or at least appear to be making progress in that direction or to be serious about it, or your populace will get feed up with your bull****. Why do you suppose Iran was so eager to tout the US carrier leaving the Gulf and claimed their warships chased it in a grand sham? They need buy-in that they're making progress. They're not getting enough of it.

So what you are saying is that because we don't really know what the other side might do, we should employ worst-case-scenario thinking? Why isn't the US then taking steps against Israel?

Why should the US take steps against Israel? We know how they think. We've got plenty of people who can tell us. They are predictable, and behaving in a predictable fashion is the basis on which someone can be reasoned with and thus the fuel on which diplomacy runs. We don't like how they act, but that does not make them threatening in this fashion.

And more seriously are you suggesting that nobody should ever prepare for the worst case?



I'd also note that the government of Iran, the actual power part, is still composed of mullahs who participated in the revolution. The idea that a revolutionary is always one seeking power is...unlikely. Such men must often believe simply to convince and rally others to their cause.
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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Another things is that such ideologically driven people are more likely to take extreme measures as they invariably believe that the result out weighs the cost, if they even consider the cost in the first place.  The general population will support their leader's decision because they also believe the decision was the right one due to propogander and or a general national prejudice which the leader used/created to help cement their power and/or Its politically the best option to support the action.
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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
Quote
And more seriously are you suggesting that nobody should ever prepare for the worst case?

There have been several occassions in the US history where the goverment took measures against threats (some of them non existent) which turned out to do them much harm in the long run. I am thinking Iraq here, amongst others.

Quote
(Rest of the post

Very well explained. I completely forgot about the Slavish peoples, as well as the "1984" thing. I still get the feeling that most of it is related to staying in power, instead of ideology, though.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Isreali Mossad Agents posed as CIA agents to recruit Jundallah to fight Iran.
But destroying Israel is one of the key tenants of their internal propaganda and their ideology.

Prove that.

I offer this as counter-evidence to anything you say.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/did-ahmadinejad-really-say-israel-should-be-wiped-off-the-map/2011/10/04/gIQABJIKML_blog.html
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