Author Topic: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??  (Read 10416 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
Guys Guys Guys

MP-Ryan read the bill

HE IS ONE OF THEM

While you made me laugh, the last thing these guys need is encouragement, you!
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Offline The E

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
Hey, now that you posted the text, we technically have all read it, thus making us all part of THEM.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
They'll have to turn in their tin foil hats on their way into the Evil Conspirators Conference Room.  They interfere with the world domination hologram, and we can't have that.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
There are still two things that are problematic, here... mostly due to ambiguous phrasing.

Warning: yes, I am talking about semantics. The semantics are important here; a law should be phrased in a manner that leaves no such ambiguity...




Quote
A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.

That "or" means a person doesn't have to have any involvement with al-Qaeda or the Taliban.



And then, is it
Quote
any person who has committed a belligerent act in aid of such enemy forces, or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces

or is it

Quote
any person who has committed a belligerent act, or any person who has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.






Quote
Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.




Here, is it
Quote
United States citizens who are captured or arrested in the United States, lawful resident aliens of the United States who are captured or arrested in the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States

or is it

Quote
United States citizens (captured anywhere), lawful resident aliens of the United States (captured anywhere), or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States

 
Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
In addition to that, Mp-Ryan where is "a beligerent act" defined? That could bee for peaceful protests. For speaking out against political corruption, for voicing your opinion, or doing any of a hundred ambiguous behaviors they find undesirable.

I have read the bill. It's still grotesque.

Furthermore, if it really is so benign, why was it drawn up in a secret committee behind closed doors? Why was it rushed through the deliberation phase? And why, oh why, is no mainstream news source within the U.S. talking about it, while everyone else is buzzing about it like crazy?
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
yes, but not nearly to the extent it's being made out to be.  at least in writing.  of course we know lawyers and the courts basically interpret things however they ****ing want to.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
Quote
SEC. 1021. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.

    (a) In General- Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40; 50 U.S.C. 1541 note) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition under the law of war.

    (b) Covered Persons- A covered person under this section is any person as follows:

        (1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.

        (2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.

    (c) Disposition Under Law of War- The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:

        (1) Detention under the law of war without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.

        (2) Trial under chapter 47A of title 10, United States Code (as amended by the Military Commissions Act of 2009 (title XVIII of Public Law 111-84)).

        (3) Transfer for trial by an alternative court or competent tribunal having lawful jurisdiction.

        (4) Transfer to the custody or control of the person's country of origin, any other foreign country, or any other foreign entity.

    (d) Construction- Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.

    (e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.

    (f) Requirement for Briefings of Congress- The Secretary of Defense shall regularly brief Congress regarding the application of the authority described in this section, including the organizations, entities, and individuals considered to be `covered persons' for purposes of subsection (b)(2).

There are no semantics here.  Legal drafting follows established rules which ensure their meaning is read the same way regardless of the piece of legislation.

In the case of 1021(b)(2), it means any person who was part of, supported, committed a belligerent act to support, or directly supported by aid or otherwise, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated enemy forces.  This limits the scope in such a way that a direct link has to be established to Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or an associated organization - your interpretation that it is not limited is incorrect.

1021(e) works in conjunction with (d), and should be read exactly as written:  US citizen detention is not affected, lawful resident of the US detention is not affected, and detention of those captured/arrested on US soil that do not fall into those categories is also not affected.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
In addition to that, Mp-Ryan where is "a beligerent act" defined? That could bee for peaceful protests. For speaking out against political corruption, for voicing your opinion, or doing any of a hundred ambiguous behaviors they find undesirable.

Nope.  Belligerent act will either be defined in the definitions section of the bill (EDIT: just checked, this is a pared down definitions with only 3 entries, so there is definitely another piece of overarching legislation), or it will be derived from another piece of legislation that sets out definitions.  As the NDAA is a yearly authorization bill, it is a derivative work, and will definitely rely on other pieces of legislation that remain permanently in force.  Not being an American and not fully versed in the structure of US legislation, I don't know offhand what that piece would be or precisely where the definition is found, but rest assured it is defined somewhere.  If that somewhere isn't a piece of federal legislation, it may be case law, or it may even rely on the common usage principle - in which case all you need is whatever reference dictionary US federal law uses (in Canada, it's the Oxford English dictionary, but I don't know about the States). Regardless - the administration doesn't get to change the definition at their whim.  You should also note that the correct understanding of the bill's phrasing is "belligerent act in aid of such enemy forces," with the forces being previously defined as Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces.  It's actually a fairly specific usage that can't be broadly applied, conspiracy-theorist nonsense notwithstanding.

Quote
I have read the bill. It's still grotesque.

Well, you haven't provided anything factual that would make anyone else arrive at that conclusion, but you are entitled to your opinion, baseless as it appears to be.

Quote
Furthermore, if it really is so benign, why was it drawn up in a secret committee behind closed doors? Why was it rushed through the deliberation phase? And why, oh why, is no mainstream news source within the U.S. talking about it, while everyone else is buzzing about it like crazy?

Because it's a routine defence spending authorization bill?  I don't know the peculiarities of US spending authorizations, but they don't seem like riveting material that deserves national attention.  Stuff like this brings the conspiracy nuts out of the woodwork, but the majority of the time they read a few things out of context and then proceed to flip out over nothing.  Happens in Canada all the time too.

Feel free to post the sections that are "grotesque" and perhaps we can clear up the interpretation and lack of legal understanding issues that a lot of people in this thread are demonstrating.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 07:53:19 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
i find it rather grotesque.  not so much for the content of the bill but for how the whole process worked.  first, this has nothing to do with spending.  it should therefore not be in a spending bill.  this is one of the biggest things i honestly can't believe we let congress get away with.  if for some godawful reason i ever find myself in congress, the first thing i will do is propose a constitutional amendment that forbids such practice, and not rest until it passes.  second, i FIRMLY believe that if the government does not NEED a law to do their job, then it should not make one.  this is one of those cases.  creating some legislation and then defending it by saying, "oh, but we won't use it like that" is utterly assanine.  phrases like "this shall not be construed to affect...." set off more warning lights.  if it isn't intended to change things, why the **** are we even creating it?  see point #2.  if we just didn't have this clause in the first place, any chance of it being abused, however unlikely, is eliminated. 
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Offline Sushi

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
In addition to that, Mp-Ryan where is "a beligerent act" defined? That could bee for peaceful protests. For speaking out against political corruption, for voicing your opinion, or doing any of a hundred ambiguous behaviors they find undesirable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belligerent

The legal/formal definition is specifically about acts of war. Protests do NOT fall under that category, nor do other "undesirable behaviors."

I have read the bill. It's still grotesque.

Furthermore, if it really is so benign, why was it drawn up in a secret committee behind closed doors? Why was it rushed through the deliberation phase? And why, oh why, is no mainstream news source within the U.S. talking about it, while everyone else is buzzing about it like crazy?

G0atmaster, you're about a month late. There was a lot more buzz on this earlier.

Did you even read the link I posted?

Quote
Does the NDAA expand the government’s detention authority?

Nope. Under current law, the Obama administration claims the authority to detain:

    persons that the President determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, and persons who harbored those responsible for those attacks. The President also has the authority to detain persons who were part of, or substantially supported, Taliban or al-Qaida forces or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act, or has directly supported hostilities, in aid of such enemy armed forces.

If that link wasn't clear enough, here's some more in-depth analysis by the same people (who actually know what they're talking about and aren't trying to spin anything): Part 1 Part 2

If you could take off the tinfoil for just five minutes and actually learn some facts about how things currently work, you might find less reason to panic. The bill is certainly problematic for a number of reasons, but it isn't the constitution-shredding monstrosity you and thousands of ignorant bloggers have made it out to be. It formally sets rules and limits on powers that the government has been claiming to have for years. IMO it's bad that the government is claiming these powers, but it's good to formally define them (so they are limited and can be more effectively challenged).

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
It seems MP-Ryan failed to understand it (or he understood, but failed to give any such indication)...

So I'll do it again, this time without adding any words; only parentheses to indicate order of parse. This is not something that I'm imagining: there are two ways to read these sentences.




(any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities) in aid of such enemy forces.
any person who has committed a belligerent act or (has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces).

(United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons) who are captured or arrested in the United States.
United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or (any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States).

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
He didn't fail to understand anything, except perhaps what the blazes you're talking about.  He speaks legalese as part of his job, so if he doesn't see a problem with it, I'm more inclined to think you're seeing ghosts than actual threats.

 

Offline watsisname

Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
:rolleyes:

* watsisname points at post #46.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
@watsisname: You read the post I was responding to, and you recognized its relevance. Have a cookie!



@Scotty: consider the following phrase:

"men and women with tall hats"

Does "with tall hats" apply to the men, or just the women? In English, there is ambiguity. If you mean to say that in legalese, that phrase would always be interpreted as "men and women, both with tall hats", then fine.




But MP-Ryan has not been so consistent:

According to MP-Ryan, in 1021(b)(2) the phrase "in aid of such enemy forces" applied to the whole of "any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities"

And yet in 1021(e) the phrase "who are captured or arrested in the United States" somehow only applies to "any other persons", rather than the whole list "United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons"  :confused:

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
There is also the question if the ambiguity in the wording is deliberate or simply the result of gross incompetence.... in todays world either is just as likely :P LOL.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
It seems MP-Ryan failed to understand it (or he understood, but failed to give any such indication)...

So I'll do it again, this time without adding any words; only parentheses to indicate order of parse. This is not something that I'm imagining: there are two ways to read these sentences.




(any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities) in aid of such enemy forces.
any person who has committed a belligerent act or (has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces).

(United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons) who are captured or arrested in the United States.
United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or (any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States).

the first ones.  in normal, conversational english, that's how you would parse those statements.  to get to the second one, you'd have to be deliberately mis-interpreting.  and it just so happens the first parsings are the ones that make sense in the context of the bill.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
According to MP-Ryan, in 1021(b)(2) the phrase "in aid of such enemy forces" applied to the whole of "any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities"

And yet in 1021(e) the phrase "who are captured or arrested in the United States" somehow only applies to "any other persons", rather than the whole list "United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons"  :confused:

Commas are important.

Quote
(2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.

Let me break it down for you.  Here is the way the clauses operate:

A person who was part of or substantially supported {Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners}, including any person who has {committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities} in aid of such enemy forces.

The first set of brackets encompasses the entire definition of enemy forces.  The second set surrounds the entire set of circumstances included aside from those previously stated.  The absence of a comma following "act" means it operates as a single clause; were the "or" preceded by a comma, it would be a separate clause.

Quote
(e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.

Clauses here are defined by the comma placement, thus there are three categories in operation.  {United States citizens}, {lawful resident aliens of the United States}, and {any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States}.

The rules are quite consistent.  You just have to pay attention to them.  And these aren't legal rules, these are the rules of the English language, which I'll grant you are becoming a bit of a lost art themselves.  Congress, rest assured, writes their bills in English, not "American."  Considering the number of people who can't even distinguish between "then" and "than" in written form, I'm not really surprised this has become a point of confusion.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 01:33:04 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
i find it rather grotesque.  not so much for the content of the bill but for how the whole process worked.  first, this has nothing to do with spending.  it should therefore not be in a spending bill.  this is one of the biggest things i honestly can't believe we let congress get away with.  if for some godawful reason i ever find myself in congress, the first thing i will do is propose a constitutional amendment that forbids such practice, and not rest until it passes.  second, i FIRMLY believe that if the government does not NEED a law to do their job, then it should not make one.  this is one of those cases.  creating some legislation and then defending it by saying, "oh, but we won't use it like that" is utterly assanine.  phrases like "this shall not be construed to affect...." set off more warning lights.  if it isn't intended to change things, why the **** are we even creating it?  see point #2.  if we just didn't have this clause in the first place, any chance of it being abused, however unlikely, is eliminated.

All legitimate points.  None of that, however, suggests this is the constitution-killing debacle that the hysterics are going on and on about.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
Very well, you have explained the perceived inconsistency.  :)

But you have not explained how 1021(e) couldn't mean this:
{{United States citizens}, {lawful resident aliens of the United States}, or {any other persons}} who are captured or arrested in the United States.




And, in response to...
to get to the second one, you'd have to be deliberately mis-interpreting.  and it just so happens the first parsings are the ones that make sense in the context of the bill.

I say...
Quote from: Edward Aloysius Murphy, Jr.
If there's more than one way to do a job, and one of those ways will result in disaster, then somebody will do it that way.

Besides, these are politicians we're talking about. Deliberately mis-interpreting is what they do best.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Why aren't more people talking about the NDAA??
Very well, you have explained the perceived inconsistency.  :)

But you have not explained how 1021(e) couldn't mean this:
{{United States citizens}, {lawful resident aliens of the United States}, or {any other persons}} who are captured or arrested in the United States.

Yes, I have.  The clauses are separated by commas and a final "or" (which could just as easily be an "and").  This means they are a list, where each listed item is self-contained.  If they had wanted it to say what you keep saying it says, they would have written it like this:

(e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons, when captured or arrested in the United States.

By the rules of the English language, in the original text the phrase who are captured or arrested in the United States describes only the object immediately preceding it - any other persons.

EDIT:  This is basic high school grammar.

EDIT2:  ...and you accuse politicians of willful misinterpretation.  Yeesh.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 04:18:40 pm by MP-Ryan »
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