[headdie]

the situation with the colly is more like the colly being a pre-juganaught class battleship representing the best that the GTVA can muster after a massive effort vs 80 Shivan bizmarks put mustered in a short time

[BengalTiger]

it was a sath (another juggernaut) that killed the collie. maybe if 90 Iowas ( ) had killed the yamato your parallel would be relevant but even then it wouldn't prove the point you're making.

you seem to be confusing fs1 themes with fs2 things, it seems like. in fs1 you saw the rise of the fighter as a viable platform with things like shields and huge bombs. They go from pitiful little deathtraps to neigh invulnerable ships against capships. In fs2 capships can stave off defeat a bit longer with AAA beams and flak, but the message is the same as at the end of fs1.

Well the theme is that the Big C got destroyed, just as the Yamato did.

If the Yamato didn't get blown up, it would prove BB's have a future, but need to adapt to new, flying threats- same way the new GTVA superjugs would have to be able to shoot Shivan superjugs faster.

On the other hand- if it was battleships that sunk the Yamato, it would mean that the US Navy had rocket assisted, subcaliber, GPS guided shells back in '45. 
Or that the Yamato defeated the US airstrikes and they had to sink it in a battleship slugfest.

[headdie]

but it was a supercap vs supercap that killed the colly, effectively a battleship vs battleship (though both colly and sath have carrier capabilities neither side directed them against the opposing supercap).

the point myself and I think others are making is that the GTVA just dont have the industrial base, possibly technological base as well, to go toe-to-toe with the shivans let alone overpower them and indeed the GTVA need to adopt a carrier vs battleship approach if they hope to come out on top of the shivans and strike with supercap threatening firepower from beyond the immediate zone of effect of Shivan (super)capships.  GTVA bombers of the FS2 era while having the firepower can't deliver it fast enough to be a realistic threat to a sath or greater scale threat.

I know I am beginning to sound like a mental BP fanboy but the fleet capabilities of the GTVA utilising strike craft to target Beyond Beam Range weaponry from subspace agile craft is the GTVA's only realistic chance the GTVA has against them (which I believe is what the BP team was aiming for when designing the BP era GTVA fleet)  Adding UEF weapons tech to provide significant direct fire Beyond Beam Range would round out the GTVA's capabilities nicely.  UEF beam jammers would be a great asset as well.

[NGTM-1R]

Aside from the cognizant story reasons for Battuta's interpretation, I'm pretty sure that's a good practical interpretation of what would happen; the Colossus' engines are mostly broken at mission start.

[CT27]

I loved the Apothess when I played Inferno years ago.  Long range vessels like that could be used to destroy the primary armaments of super Shivan vessels.

[Polpolion]

Well the theme is that the Big C got destroyed, just as the Yamato did.

If the Yamato didn't get blown up, it would prove BB's have a future, but need to adapt to new, flying threats- same way the new GTVA superjugs would have to be able to shoot Shivan superjugs faster.

On the other hand- if it was battleships that sunk the Yamato, it would mean that the US Navy had rocket assisted, subcaliber, GPS guided shells back in '45. 
Or that the Yamato defeated the US airstrikes and they had to sink it in a battleship slugfest.

uh what

if the Yamato survived the allied bombings then wouldn't that demonstrate that it had sufficient anti air capabilities, thus proving that it did NOT need to adapt to engage flying threats? but instead the Yamato did succumb to the attack, showing that naval fleets WOULD need to adapt to engage flying enemies.

also I don't think the destruction of the collosus is a theme. it's an event that illustrates a theme, but I really don't think that a big point of FS2 was that battleships = bad. Note the Hecate, the most modern widely deployed terran destroyer. It's hardly a battleship, but rather a carrier. I'd wager the collie was just a giant dick-waving tool for the gtva had to make themselves feel good. I don't think they ever intended to put it into mass production even if it somehow magically killed all 90 saths and saved cappella.

[General Battuta]

i'm pretty sure that after the entire pacific war defined itself by air power the survival of one battleship wouldn't have made battleships as a whole any less dinosaur...ic

[Polpolion]

yeah that's true, but I had got the feeling that bengal tiger was using the Yamato just as one particular example of the more general battleship in the whole battleship vs. carrier debate. If battleships could regularly defeat air attacks then that would imply they don't need to try any new strategy, contrary to what mr. tiger suggested.

[General Battuta]

yeah i concur, and i also concur about the colossus as a big ol' phallic totem - the GTVA really wanted a symbol that could supplant the lucifer in the public imagination, a way to say 'shivans? heh. we got that covered.'

[BengalTiger]

If battleships could regularly defeat air attacks then that would imply they don't need to try any new strategy, contrary to what mr. tiger suggested.

If the Colossus could have survived against SJ Sathanas juggernauts, than no new strategy would be needed, other than making more and better Big C's.

As for carriers vs battleships:

If Japan was interested in developing radar gun laying and proximity fuses for AA shells just as much as the US, then American air strikes would have often ended similarly to IJN ones (battleship South Dakota, for example, was credited with downing 26 enemy planes on 25 October '42, there were lots of other ships with 2 digit scores of kills and/or assists from a single day of combat).

The resulting lower effectiveness of US Navy planes would lead to far more surface battles, such as the Battle off Samar, where The Yamato did in fact score hits on an escort carrier, contributing a few 18 inch holes to the process of sinking it.

[Spoon]

You know, that would've been a decent addition to the FS2 ending, which is, thematically, about humanity's insignificance: escorting the crippled Colossus out of the system, inching towards the node...

...and then losing the Colossus when Capella went supernova because **** you

Haha that would have been awesome 

[headdie]

If battleships could regularly defeat air attacks then that would imply they don't need to try any new strategy, contrary to what mr. tiger suggested.

If the Colossus could have survived against SJ Sathanas juggernauts, than no new strategy would be needed, other than making more and better Big C's.

That assumes the GTVA economy can support the construction and maintenance of 80+ juggernauts and if that is the case why do the GTVA not have several already?  after the colly beat the first sath why was there no grand announcement about building more in order to capitalise on the popularity boost?

[Deadly in a Shadow]

If battleships could regularly defeat air attacks then that would imply they don't need to try any new strategy, contrary to what mr. tiger suggested.

If the Colossus could have survived against SJ Sathanas juggernauts, than no new strategy would be needed, other than making more and better Big C's.

That assumes the GTVA economy can support the construction and maintenance of 80+ juggernauts and if that is the case why do the GTVA not have several already?  after the colly beat the first sath why was there no grand announcement about building more in order to capitalise on the popularity boost?

Because moar shivans and then Juggernauts bugged out before the GTVA announced more Collys.

[headdie]

If battleships could regularly defeat air attacks then that would imply they don't need to try any new strategy, contrary to what mr. tiger suggested.

If the Colossus could have survived against SJ Sathanas juggernauts, than no new strategy would be needed, other than making more and better Big C's.

That assumes the GTVA economy can support the construction and maintenance of 80+ juggernauts and if that is the case why do the GTVA not have several already?  after the colly beat the first sath why was there no grand announcement about building more in order to capitalise on the popularity boost?

Because moar shivans and then Juggernauts bugged out before the GTVA announced more Collys.

there was quite a stretch of time passing between the destruction of the first sath and the apearence of the second, more than enough time to wright a press release about how the GTVA was planning to build more of these wonder ships

[Damage]

The Colossus probably would've been used to maintain peace in the old NTF systems for some time, assuming it survived Capella.  After that, maybe using it to spearhead a mission to Earth (which seems to be the general theme for post-capella campaigns).  At the least it could be used for a command ship during any fleet operations.

I can't see the GTVA building more Colossus scale or larger ships after Capella, at least not without some very good reason to do so.  It took them about 20 years to build it in the first place.  Did the NTF Rebellion play in fast-tracking its completion?  And how much wasn't finished because of it?.

Even given that doing it a second time might not take quite so long, I still can't see it taking less than 10 years to build another hull.  They'd be better off just building smaller destroyer or corvette sized ships with powerful weapons systems, which individually could be used to meet multiple threats but could also be pulled together for a more powerful fleet offensive.

[Klaustrophobia]

I can't see the GTVA building more Colossus scale or larger ships after Capella, at least not without some very good reason to do so. 

they've always assumed sealing the nodes is nothing more than a temporary stop, and the shivans will find a way through or around with nodes the GTVA can't use/doesn't know about eventually.  that could have prompted further colossus constructions if the first hadn't been destroyed.

[General Battuta]

also bear in mind that their first line of attack against the sathanas didn't even involve the colossus - they were loathe to risk their big dick ship against the sathanas

the initial plan (involving TAG and destroyers) was probably way better anyway

[el_magnifico]

The Alliance can't outnumber nor outgun the Shivan Juggernauts. And they need to work within the available technology and budget. So they need to use something powerful and expendable to attack a Sathanas fleet. And they need to be able to mass produce it.

Hmmm... What about attaching an engine and a subspace drive into a Mjolnir RBC? About 10 to 15 of those should be enough to destroy a Sathanas in a reasonable time if they are properly escorted. They don't even need to be manned, since the GTVA already has drone technology.

The GTVA also has ETAK. They may be able to use it to tap into Shivan communications and even to disrupt them.

the initial plan (involving TAG and destroyers) was probably way better anyway

The one that failed miserably?

[headdie]

TAG was the mission or two before, the initial assault on the Sath was made by Alpha and delta wings with alpha lobbing helios at the forward beam emplacements with rather unlucky Phonicia parked in the way to try and slow the thing down.  the next phase was high noon with the colly tangling with the weakened sath again backed up by Alpha wing

[Klaustrophobia]

The Alliance can't outnumber nor outgun the Shivan Juggernauts. And they need to work within the available technology and budget. So they need to use something powerful and expendable to attack a Sathanas fleet. And they need to be able to mass produce it.

Hmmm... What about attaching an engine and a subspace drive into a Mjolnir RBC? About 10 to 15 of those should be enough to destroy a Sathanas in a reasonable time if they are properly escorted. They don't even need to be manned, since the GTVA already has drone technology.

The GTVA also has ETAK. They may be able to use it to tap into Shivan communications and even to disrupt them.

the initial plan (involving TAG and destroyers) was probably way better anyway

The one that failed miserably?

are you sure you're not thinking of the ravana attack?  i thought they never got to the point of attacking the sathanas with destroyers.  (i don't remember TAG being involved in the plan either)