[mjn.mixael]

Going to guess from memory that it's because they claimed all the remaining meson bombs were being used in the Bastion and Nereid and that you can count the number of bombs packed into these ships in the CB

I remember thinking about this. Now, the number of Meson bombs in existence doesn't really matter much, but here's the conclusion I came up with.

First here's the original and my remake side by side from the CBAnim. Don't take the sizes too literally on these frames because the bombs scale repeatedly to draw attention to themselves. (Watch the anim to see what I mean. (cb_sm3-08_c.ani)


Now look at the Meson as we know it.


The shape of the red thing and the Meson with freighter travelling case are clearly different. The size of the Meson bomb with case is also something to consider. What I ended up going with is that the CBAnim actually shows a different case and that the bomb is actually the things packed around it because they seem to have the same general shape as the center part of what we know in-game as the Meson Bomb.

With that in mind, I would argue that the GTVA had quite a few more than just 17 bombs. They certainly may have still used the last of them they had though.

Of course if there's a canon intel intrey somewhere that specifically says 17, then my theory is bust.

[BengalTiger]

We also don't know how long those things were in production. If the 17 (if there were only 17...) were built in 1-2 months before FS 2, I'd say they could be able to produce 1-2 every day if they really invested some effort into it.
That would require just a couple years to have the ability to shoot down a Sath fleet- that is if the Shivans don't come up with some sort of countermeasure.

As for the Harbingers- a new series of those (preferably with higher speed and lower reload times) would also be extremely useful to immobilize the Saths.

[Polpolion]

yeah with torpedoes I kinda get the feeling that they would be way more useful if they didn't require a lock to fire. Most of the time whatever you're shooting at is pretty hard to miss anyway; it'd be nice to not have to hover your reticle on target for nearly 10 seconds whenever you want to fire. Also fire times. I can understand the long reload times for bombers with entirely internal missile bays but not for ships with racks of missiles. contrast the medusa with, say, the artemis. I don't think there would need to be much reload time when you're just firing from a different tube. Suppose it wouldn't help TOO much when you consider you'd need to wait anyway or run the risk of your bombs destroyed each other in the first's explosion.

[headdie]

Torpedoes requiring a lock would make sense if the torpedo used some form of counter fire avoidance

[Polpolion]

Not necessarily, you can do all that inertially. But it's moot because none of our torpedoes do that.

[Mongoose]

The bomb could also be performing some sort of technical mumbo-jumbo to adapt itself to the target type in order to perform maximum damage.  I think one of the FS1 bombs had fluff text along those lines.

[Commander Zane]

I think one of the FS1 bombs had fluff text along those lines.

Wasn't that the Stiletto's defensive shield?

[Cyborg17]

It probably has a lock so that it will hit the subsystem you want to hit.  Still, it would be nice to let them fire without a lock in case you just need to get a quick shot off.

[Hades]

No. The Promethus in FS1 would scan the target and adjust the power of the weapon itself accordingly. Wasn't from any bomb.

[Commander Zane]

No. The Promethus in FS1 would scan the target and adjust the power of the weapon itself accordingly. Wasn't from any bomb.

Oh, right.

[crizza]

Gimme railguns firing smaller meson projectiles

[Kie99]

I've always felt that after the events of Freespace 2, trying to fight the Shivans toe to toe is suicide, and trying to come up with military strategies to fight them is an exercise in futility.  Even if the long range rail guns, subspace missiles, bomber spam and so on were extremely efficient at destroying a Sathanas, there's still the problem that, as per the Ancient monologues, the Shivans have a colossal fleet of ships that are invulnerable to that sort of attack, and the sheer volume of ships will probably be too much for any strategy you have anyway.  And that's just the ships we know about.

Mass production of Meson Bombs would likely be the solution, but not as a form of conventional attack, they'd be put in mothballed destroyers in every system ready to seal off any node that Shivans were coming through as quickly as possible, or the system itself from the rest of GTVA space if it is overrun.  Of course, this idea doesn't make for very fun campaigns.

[Cyborg17]

The only reason why going toe-to-toe with the Shivans is impossible is that the shivans will eventually figure out the position of your fleet.  If for some reason, they could not figure out the location  of your fleet or your home planets, then you could eventually whittle them down if you found a tactic that they could not defeat.  But as long as they have the ability to track you through subspace, you're done.

[el_magnifico]

a mobile mjolnir is cannon fodder, no matter what is providing the engines.  it would require so much cover to be effective that you'd be better off sending a warship.

Fine. Then let's mount that same beam in a cheap cruiser. And then let's hope hundreds of thousands of humans/vasudans will be "patriotic enough" to man them. On the other hand, it's not like the Fenris was able to defend itself, and yet the Alliance used it even in the frontlines.

Mass production of Meson Bombs would likely be the solution, but not as a form of conventional attack, they'd be put in mothballed destroyers in every system ready to seal off any node that Shivans were coming through as quickly as possible, or the system itself from the rest of GTVA space if it is overrun.  Of course, this idea doesn't make for very fun campaigns.

The GTVA considered sealing off systems as just a temporary measure. I mean, you just can't run from the universal bully every single time he comes looking for a fight. You will end up with no systems whatsoever. Not to talk about what the economy will look like after 3 or 4 systems are cut off.
There's also a technical impossibility: Systems may have uncharted nodes.

If for some reason, they could not figure out the location  of your fleet or your home planets, then you could eventually whittle them down if you found a tactic that they could not defeat.

Are you talking about guerrilla tactics in my Freespace?
If you abandon your planets and start hiding your fleet, you will end up looking just like the Shivans. Which kind of reminds me of my brother's theory about the Shivans being a future species "evolved" by genetic engineering from humans, that travelled back through time to prevent the destruction of their homeworld by this powerful and long-forgotten race of xenophobic aliens from their mythology. Well done, Shivans. Well done...

OFF-TOPIC ANSWERS

You need to get another look at your tables. The Perseus is essentially an Apollo MkII in regard of every single entry of the ships.tbl, aside maybe for the pitch and roll time, which are better by 0.1 sec for the old Ap', but this is compensated by, well, everything else.

The GTVA decommissioned the Ap just a little early, but we've got a more than excellent replacement for it right there.

Hmmm... I don't know. There's something in the Perseus that just doesn't cut it for me. I'm not sure if it's that I miss the Apollo's thin profile, or if it's just that I loathe the Perseus missile hardpoints and their "shuffle" when using Tempests.
I once "ported" FSport's Apollo to FS2Open so I could fly it in the Hammerheads' missions (and I loved it), though I admit I never tried to do the same in the Suicide Kings' missions.

Gimme railguns firing smaller meson projectiles

GIMME LAZORS FIRIN' LAZORS!!!!!!!1
Sorry, I just had to do that.

[headdie]

A thought I have has is that Knossos tech might prove an interesting angle on defeating the shivans.  If you control the ability to enter a system you control how many Shivans you have to destroy.

the basic attack plan would be something like:-

 - Knossos the node you want to enter shivan space through, eg one of the Capella nodes.
 - Deploy a small recon force to scout the system to try an ascertain local Shivan forces, and in the case of a unexplored systems locate jump nodes.
 - deploy some means of collapsing nodes from systems not controlled by the GTVA, eg a meson packed destroyers.
 - Start combat operations to secure the system
 - Use the Knossos to seal the node if things go bad
 - Should the system be secured rebuild the GTVA's forces and start again

[Mongoose]

The problem there is that, as we learned with the Gamma Draconis Knossos, running one of those things for a little while seems to leave the node at least temporarily stable, even if the Knossos is switched off or destroyed.  The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.

[NGTM-1R]

The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.

It's not clear this isn't actually a function they're capable of. More than one person has proposed the Knossos' initial state before the Trinity turned it on was equivalent to a door that was deliberately closed.

[el_magnifico]

the basic attack plan would be something like:-

 - Knossos the node you want to enter shivan space through, eg one of the Capella nodes.
 - Deploy a small recon force to scout the system to try an ascertain local Shivan forces, and in the case of a unexplored systems locate jump nodes.
 - deploy some means of collapsing nodes from systems not controlled by the GTVA, eg a meson packed destroyers.
 - Start combat operations to secure the system
 - Use the Knossos to seal the node if things go bad
 - Should the system be secured rebuild the GTVA's forces and start again

It would go off like this:

 - GTVA opens the node.
 - Sath fleet jumps in.
 - They blow up your Knossos.
 - You suddenly feel an urge to regain your faith in your religion of choice.

 

The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.

It's not clear this isn't actually a function they're capable of. More than one person has proposed the Knossos' initial state before the Trinity turned it on was equivalent to a door that was deliberately closed.

Not canon.

[LunarNightmare]

The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.

It's not clear this isn't actually a function they're capable of. More than one person has proposed the Knossos' initial state before the Trinity turned it on was equivalent to a door that was deliberately closed.

Not canon.

Typically i'll try to avoid posting around this time (because my posts' quality is close to spam when i'm tired), but I do believe a command briefing in the FS2 main campaign mentions the Knossos being something along the lines of inactive before the Trinity unleashed some really angry Shivans.

Anyway...

Forgive me if i'm out of line for saying this, as i'm fairly new around here, but I think that we should keep this on topic, this is "Colossus what if?", not "Knossos what if?".

[headdie]

The problem there is that, as we learned with the Gamma Draconis Knossos, running one of those things for a little while seems to leave the node at least temporarily stable, even if the Knossos is switched off or destroyed.  The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.

Even if it's not something which the physics of a Knossos is able to do I would not be surprised if research into how large intensity explosions collapse nodes and it reveal a more efficient means of collapsing a node which could be integrated into the device.

the basic attack plan would be something like:-

 - Knossos the node you want to enter shivan space through, eg one of the Capella nodes.
 - Deploy a small recon force to scout the system to try an ascertain local Shivan forces, and in the case of a unexplored systems locate jump nodes.
 - deploy some means of collapsing nodes from systems not controlled by the GTVA, eg a meson packed destroyers.
 - Start combat operations to secure the system
 - Use the Knossos to seal the node if things go bad
 - Should the system be secured rebuild the GTVA's forces and start again

It would go off like this:

 - GTVA opens the node.
 - Sath fleet jumps in.
 - They blow up your Knossos.
 - You suddenly feel an urge to regain your faith in your religion of choice.

Firstly assumption you make there is that Shivan forces are on top of the node on reactivation which is not forced to be the case.  Also we don't know how much time passed between the Trinity activating the knossos and the Rakshasa entering GD and killing the Vigilant.

Secondly evidence from the destruction of the Vigilant and the events in GD is that the Shivans send a small recon force through first, cruisers and fighters, and deploy the big stuff later on.

Thirdly the shivans are never seen attacking the Knossos, seemingly preferring to take the structure intact, I presume because it is a structure that aids subspace transit which FS1 indicates is of more importance to the shivans than planets and physical resources, though again that is speculation in FS canon and might be as a result of the FS1 fleet's roll rather than as a species preference.

Lastly, the mission briefing for the final mission of FS1 proves it is possible to communicate with ships in transit between nodes from normal space meaning the recon force can warn the GTVA if Shivans pass the other way allowing some warning to ake steps towards sealing the node again.