[headdie]

blue planet is non-canon.

I thought we were talking about a Colossus vs UEF in which case BP is canon

Not to mention the AoA Shivans never fought a second Incursion so it's surprising they're even packing that much heat

That's one of the things that makes my comparison with AoA a grey area, including where the hell did they get beam packing non Lucifers, and saths, the only way i can work it is if.

1. The shivs found the GD knossos or some other undiscovered knossos and reactivated it
2. With shivans on both sides of a collapsed node, they have some other way of reactivating them
3. Something i cant think of atm.

in the case of 1 and 2 then I don't believe that what is seen is much beyond reasonable garrison forces with the possible exception of the sath.

Having said that, another aspect is that we often see enough shivan tech to match GTA/PVN/GTVA technology with just enough excess to say ha ha you are fools to stand against us, if that is the case then they can conceivably have many tiers of technology as of yet undeployed.

Another aspect is that Shivans tend to demonstrate brute force tactics rather than intelligent application of technological superiority, in this case do the shivans posses better tech as what they have and the numbers they have is enough to win out against upstart races.

[Polpolion]

Which in turn makes several other assumptions about the Shivans as a society and the nature of the Shivan forces encountered...

We can go around in circles for hours with this, ultimately just about anything can be justified.

All right let me rephrase, the Shivans are plenty capable of having technology that is more advance than we've seen. I don't think it makes sense for GTVA high command to assume that we should ignore that possibility (especially after all FS2), not that it makes much of a difference since we can't handle the sathanas threat anyway.

[CT27]

On a more general note:  if the Colossus had survived, would the GTVA have kept it as is, or would they have tried to put some blue beams on it?

[Polpolion]

blue beams don't exist

e: I'm sorry for being an asshat, but the BP discussion isn't really compatible with a colossus refit discussion. yes I realize I was previously talking about BP myself, that's why I'm an asshat.

thing is, the colossus surviving  the second shivan incursion changes the way history works. BP wouldn't happen the way you played it because the Colossus survived. blue beams may eventually be invented, they might not. The only meaningful thing we can ask ourselves is "would the GTVA get better beams?"

honestly I don't find the discussion very satisfying when the answer to "how would we refit the colossus?" is "identical weapons that do more damage".

[CT27]

Fair enough.

If, as seems to be the consensus here, the Colossus wouldn't have been used against the UEF...would it work against the Earth Alliance in Inferno?

[Scourge of Ages]

On a more general note:  if the Colossus had survived, would the GTVA have kept it as is, or would they have tried to put some blue beams on it?

I'm pretty sure that it'd just be immediately mothballed, or else turned it into a space station.

[qwadtep]

The best way to deploy the Colossus against the Shivans is probably the same way it was deployed in FS2. Park it near a planet to deter a bombardment while its fighter wings cover evacuating civilians. Leave the front to smaller, faster ships that won't be such a crushing blow to the GTVA when destroyed and can surround a Sathanas rather than presenting one large target.

I am not so sure.  In AoA we have shivans, all be it from another dimension, which are still operating Capella era tech so that would be a grey area whether they would have more powerful technology on hand.

The Shivans in AoA had never fought beam-wielding Terrans before and were caught off guard by the sudden appearance of ships capable of challenging even the Lucifer in one-on-one combat. The BP techroom also notes that the reason weapons like the Kayser seem to outperform the Shivan weapons upon which they are based is that the Shivans only ever seem to be operating at a fraction of their full power. They'll be upgraded if and when they appear in BP again.

[NGTM-1R]

With good jump placement, the Colossus is still capable of murdering an entire enemy battlegroup in about a minute. I doubt they'd just throw it away because it wasn't the solution to a problem it was never meant to solve.

[BlasterNT]

On a more general note:  if the Colossus had survived, would the GTVA have kept it as is, or would they have tried to put some blue beams on it?

I'm pretty sure that it'd just be immediately mothballed, or else turned it into a space station.

Keep in mind that quite a bit of time has passed between Capella and AoA, so not so sure about immediately. 

[qwadtep]

On a more general note:  if the Colossus had survived, would the GTVA have kept it as is, or would they have tried to put some blue beams on it?

I'm pretty sure that it'd just be immediately mothballed, or else turned it into a space station.

Keep in mind that quite a bit of time has passed between Capella and AoA, so not so sure about immediately.

The Collie was already due for several months of drydock repairs after the first Sathanas engagement. After the SD Beast and Sathanas 17, and in the post-Capella context, there would probably be a question of whether it's even worth bringing back to active duty. It would be cool if it got turned into an installation, though, like the Typhon from Derelict or the city from Diebuster.

[Polpolion]

If we're assuming that the colossus survived Capella it's pretty stupid to assume it survived too heavily damaged to be anything but scrap. Also bear in mind that a huge portion of the allied fleet was destroyed in the battle with the first Sathanas, it's unlikely that GTVA command would want to let any of the survivors go. Also I'm willing to bet that post-capella the GTVA has a logistical capacity much greater than the fleet it needs to serve, since most of freighters and transports had already been evacuated from capella, but as I said above, much of the fleet was destroyed.

[SaltyWaffles]

And then the Colossus takes the field, and it's game over.

Yes. For the Colossus. Given how good UEF ships are at subsystem sniping, the Colly itself can be rather quickly neutralized as a threat. Sure, she'll still have that 1 million hitpoints that the UEF can't really deal with quickly, but her main armament is a lot less threatening.

Also, you are making several assumptions not backed up by anything. One is that beam jamming would be unavailable. Two, that the UEF actually would go on a full on offensive without logistical preparations. Three, that the raw in-game stats as seen in the tables tell the full story.

...beam jamming wasn't available initially in WiH's events (or rather, the end of AoA), the game itself stated that, I think. 18 years prior to that, I'm pretty sure they still wouldn't.

If the UEF went on the full offensive with full logistical preparations, their entire military would look and operate totally differently. That kind of defeats the whole point of the exercise.

The Colossus isn't anywhere near that vulnerable. Even if you factor out the psychological and morale factors, the remnants of the UEF fleet are being engaged by two destroyers, at least several corvettes, and at least a dozen cruisers, along with dozens of fighters and bombers.

BGreens, especially if overdriven, are horrifyingly powerful against UEF ships (with the sole possible exception of a Solaris). Add in supporting fire from slash beams, bombers, and the damage they took previously, and it's a one-sided fight.

Factor the morale and psychological aspects back in, and things would go downhill for the UEF very quickly in that situation.

The Colossus has 240 craft to defend its subsystems, intercept enemy craft, and even disable/destroy enemy ships. And its point defense systems aren't lacking, either. UEF ship weaponry is slow to damage unless a ship's forward-fixed gauss and mass driver cannons can be brought to bear, though it's questionable whether or not they'd make it that far, or succeed in time.

I've looked at quite a bit of raw stats, and these are the impressions I get; the UEF is not that good at fighting a war, especially an offensive one, while the GTVA shows rather incredible ability to adapt, plan ahead, and be prepared for many scenarios. The UEF also lacks much meaningful combat experience; the GTVA has plenty of it.

[qwadtep]

I kind of assumed that 3rd Fleet Capella and the Vasudan 13th Battlegroup took the bulk of the losses from the Second Incursion. Terran 6th Fleet was split between the GTVA and NTF and took heavy losses fighting itself. The majority of the GTVA's fleets were probably left to defend their home systems and supply lines or didn't have time to mobilize and reinforce Capella.

Logistically, the loss of Capella is going to devastate the GTVA's economy and the ships that escaped are going to be too busy ferrying food and clothing for refugees to toss the military a screwdriver.

The Colossus isn't anywhere near that vulnerable. Even if you factor out the psychological and morale factors, the remnants of the UEF fleet are being engaged by two destroyers, at least several corvettes, and at least a dozen cruisers, along with dozens of fighters and bombers.

If the GTVA was willing to commit that many forces in a single engagement the war would have been over ages ago. Have fun speculating what would happen in bpmassivebattle3.fs2 though.

BGreens, especially if overdriven, are horrifyingly powerful against UEF ships (with the sole possible exception of a Solaris). Add in supporting fire from slash beams, bombers, and the damage they took previously, and it's a one-sided fight.

It takes 30 seconds to recharge an LRBGreen, three shots to kill a Karuna, and another month of repairs to the Collie for every shot. TerSlash lacks range. GTVA bombers are a joke in BP.

Factor the morale and psychological aspects back in, and things would go downhill for the UEF very quickly in that situation.

You seem to keep mentioning this psychology and morale like the Feds are going to soil their pants and discard their training and rational philosophy rather than make dick jokes about it

The Colossus has 240 craft to defend its subsystems, intercept enemy craft, and even disable/destroy enemy ships. And its point defense systems aren't lacking, either. UEF ship weaponry is slow to damage unless a ship's forward-fixed gauss and mass driver cannons can be brought to bear, though it's questionable whether or not they'd make it that far, or succeed in time.

And the UEF has far superior fighter craft, superior anti-fighter screens on their warships, anti-subsystem missiles that can't be shot down, fighter-mounted railguns, and enough saturating fire to overwhelm intercept efforts. Furthermore, the Colossus can't launch all its fighters at once, provided it can at all; it has a track record of having a broken fighter bay in critical engagements and a single well-placed warhead would do it all over again.

I've looked at quite a bit of raw stats, and these are the impressions I get; the UEF is not that good at fighting a war, especially an offensive one, while the GTVA shows rather incredible ability to adapt, plan ahead, and be prepared for many scenarios. The UEF also lacks much meaningful combat experience; the GTVA has plenty of it.

The only reason the GTVA didn't get kicked out of Sol after the First Battle of Neptune is that the Elders wouldn't allow an operation to secure the node. You're seriously underestimating the UEF.

[BlasterNT]

The only reason the GTVA didn't get kicked out of Sol after the First Battle of Neptune is that the Elders wouldn't allow an operation to secure the node. You're seriously underestimating the UEF.

Wait, where did it say that?

[MatthTheGeek]

With one less destroyer in the fray, most of the UEF fleet and infrastructure still intact and, if the Elders had agreed to it, the full might of First Fleet, I don't see how Severanti could have held the node if the UEF really wanted to seize it.

As said before, Severanti managed to deal an incredible amount of damage over 18 months with ridiculously low losses and very little assets, and most of them were Capella-era. However cautious and skilled he was, he would have been booted out of Sol long before if Calder wasn't too busy arguing with the Elders during that time.

It wasn't for nothing that Severanti spent most of his resources after First Neptune to actually fortify and secure the node.

[Alex Heartnet]

-snip-
The Colossus has 240 craft to defend its subsystems, intercept enemy craft, and even disable/destroy enemy ships. And its point defense systems aren't lacking, either. UEF ship weaponry is slow to damage unless a ship's forward-fixed gauss and mass driver cannons can be brought to bear, though it's questionable whether or not they'd make it that far, or succeed in time.

A fleet carrier won't normally have all of its fighters up and running at once.  Remember that there is a turnaround time between when the fighter docks, and when the fighter is repaired, rearmed, refueled, checked to see if if needs further maintenance, and readied for launch again.

Launch all your fighters at once, and they will all be undergoing maintenance while the follow up attack arrives.  At most, we will normally see half of any large warship's fighter screen actually in space at any given moment, maybe 3/4 if the destroyer captain was anticipating a major operation.  And every fighter that does not make it back is one less fighter (and possibly one less pilot) that can be re-deployed, at least until replacement fighters arrive.

Smaller ships, like the Karuna-class frigate, can afford to deploy all their fighters at once, as they aren't the main fleet carriers.  If they get caught without fighter cover, they have each other and support from the the fleet carriers/destroyers, and they are ultimately more expendable then the destroyers.

Remember that 'All available fighters' is not the same as 'every single fighter that the boat can carry'.

[qwadtep]

The only reason the GTVA didn't get kicked out of Sol after the First Battle of Neptune is that the Elders wouldn't allow an operation to secure the node. You're seriously underestimating the UEF.

Wait, where did it say that?

In the "Balance of Power" fiction on the BP site. The admirals wanted to assault the beachhead while the Tevs were vulnerable and bloody, the Elders wouldn't let them.

[Polpolion]

can a moderator move this thread to the BP forum?

[General Battuta]

Nooo I want to have a discussion about Gen FS. Let's stop talking about BP guys

[MatthTheGeek]

The problem is that the only solid, detailed, proven and accepted post-Capella technobabble is BP's. We seriously lack comparison materials here.