[MatthTheGeek]

The Legion hole could be made with destroyable subsystem. So you could see the beam blow through it ingame. How cool would that be.

[headdie]

The Legion hole could be made with destroyable subsystem. So you could see the beam blow through it ingame. How cool would that be.

That would be nice to see

[Dragon]

That would've been perfect, and we'd get a ready Legion with Mediavps. Of course, this subsystem would have to be indestructible in normal gameplay, or else you could do this kind of damage with Akheton SDGs.
Though I admit, that would be one hilarious bug if it wasn't set as near-invulneable. 

[headdie]

That would've been perfect, and we'd get a ready Legion with Mediavps. Of course, this subsystem would have to be indestructible in normal gameplay, or else you could do this kind of damage with Akheton SDGs.
Though I admit, that would be one hilarious bug if it wasn't set as near-invulneable. 

subsystem armour

[Fury]

You could use armor types to allow only big beams to damage it.

Edit: goddamn headdie.

[headdie]

[Dragon]

That's one way to do it, but I don't think it should be damageable at all during normal gameplay, since a large beam can strike from a wrong angle and end up making a hole facing in the wrong direction.

[mjn.mixael]

This is totally unnecessary to have on the root MVPs Orion.. So many issues with it that we'd have to guard against... And how many campaigns actually use the Legion model in such a way that it needs to be in the MVPs?

[Dragon]

It wouldn't cause too many issues, just set the hole filling with an invulnerable armor type and call it a day.
It could then be detonated via SEXP, should the mission designer want a dramatic beam pierce.

[mjn.mixael]

Yeah.. no. This is a silly idea because again, you haven't told me the benefit to having such a specific kind of modelled damage. I can only think of one campaign that uses the Legion and it's so far away that it would never be rendered at full detail anyway. (ST:R) There is no benefit to mucking up a model with damage from a beam from a pretty specific angle for the 1 or 2 campaigns that might use it.

No, the better way is to take this model, when finished and model in the damage, then release it as the Legion. Bing Bang Boom. Done.

[Rodo]

He's right, you know. Besides adding that damage detail will delay the progress on the model.
I'd rather have a finished model and then get someone else to add the damage from the source files... still, this is something Hades will decide.

[Dragon]

You forgot about Transcend, which uses a different Legion (except it's not actually the Legion, but the model was build for it) than ST:R, though any changes won't alter the balance in any way.
Also, I recall the Legion being used in at least one more place (FOW:COTS?). That makes three appearances. I think that's enough, not to mention people might want a "derelict Orion" model. Including it like that could simplify things greatly (for example, a mission designer who'd like to use the derelict model wouldn't need any mods, just Mediavps).
This could indeed increase the development time though.

[mjn.mixael]

No. We are not in the business of including models for campaigns that might want them. We upgrade the retail FS2 campaign and offer support to mods that want to update to use the latest MediaVPs. Once we start adding little things for any ship that it used in 3(?) campaigns or more, where do we put our foot down? At what point do we say 'no, that's not what we do in FSU'?

I will not be the one working on this model in any way, shape, or form... so it's not up to me. But I think this is a bad idea, a waste of talent and time, and sets a bad FSU precedent.

[Fury]

I'd just like to point out that modeled damaged parts would be awesome, like poor man's geomod. Like for example, inflict enough damage on Orion's nose and see part of it breaking off. Like those spikes of Basestars in Diaspora.

The bottom line, anything that makes a capital ship actually look like it has received heavy damage is a big bonus in my books. It's just immersion breaking when the ship looks identical at 100% and at 1% and then suddenly goes boom.

[mjn.mixael]

We aren't talking about generic modeled damage... which has complications of its own with retail compatibility.

we are talking about a very specific chunk of damage from a cutscene that would only look good in certain circumstances.

[Rga_Noris]

Even if this is done, it should be released stand alone in the modding forum.

There is no reason to delay the release of this model for that feature in regards to the FSU.

[Hades]

I'll look into modeling hull damage, etc into the mesh. Not massive, cruiser sized chunks, because, to me, that'd hurt immersion more than help it, but somewhat smaller chunks all around.

Though. I don't want to do this for subsystems, because the engine doesn't differenciate between a subsystem being destroyed by an antisubsystem weapon that does not do any physical damage, and a weapon that's meant to do physical damage and hits the subsystem and destroys it. Too many instances of a ship being disabled by antisubsystem weapons and then being repaired even though it has large chunks of its engines missing.

However, if some beautiful coding god manages to get something like that coded in, me love you long time.

I also think a decal system similar to Homeworld 2 would be awesome and nearly as good, but I doubt we'll be getting that anytime soon.

No, the Legion isn't going into the mediavps. Should we add the Saturn, because it's a retextured Hades? Should we add the numerous retextured Apollo variants, etc etc? No.

I may do a Legion variant but don't count on it. It's so low on my priorities list for this mesh you'd as well consider it not there at all. Certainly not going to hold back the main mesh, in any case.

[Fury]

Though. I don't want to do this for subsystems, because the engine doesn't differenciate between a subsystem being destroyed by an antisubsystem weapon that does not do any physical damage, and a weapon that's meant to do physical damage and hits the subsystem and destroys it. Too many instances of a ship being disabled by antisubsystem weapons and then being repaired even though it has large chunks of its engines missing.

However, if some beautiful coding god manages to get something like that coded in, me love you long time.

Like already pointed out by headdie and me, this can be done with armor types.

[Hades]

So, the game won't cause the destroyed version armor/engine/etc when a subsystem is destroyed by antisubsystem guns? Sweet.

[Fury]

No. If you want regular subsystems like turrets and engines to use different destroyed submodel based on what they were destroyed with, it can't be done currently. If that's what you wanted, then I misinterpreted your post.


What I was talking about is that you can use armor types to protect untargetable subsystems from all but biggest weapons like the beams and bombs in FS2 to simulate visible deformation of hull. For example, you model a destroyable submodel for Orion's nose. That subsystem is tabled to be untargetable and protected by armor types against anything but bombs and huge beams. After suffering enough damage by such weapons, the chunk falls apart like that Basestar's spike tip in one of those Diaspora videos.

Another example would be the Legion but not in such extreme way. Instead of a gaping hole that goes right through, it could be a hole in armor plating that exposes superstructure underneath the armor. Imagine an Orion getting pounded by LRed, the area where beam impacted now has visible deformation in the hull where armor plating has been destroyed, exposing innards of the destroyer.

Such destroyable subsystems could be placed in various locations of ships to simulate hull deformation. You just need extra time and effort to model these destroyable subsystems, the rest is piece of cake. I would like to argue that spending that time and effort would be time and effort well spent. Why? Because even if one day we get decals back, they cannot deform the hull. Decals are like persistent impact explosions, they do not shape the ship in any way.