[Unknown Target]

If we were to allow, even encourage, more Americans to travel to Iraq and Afghanistan, and encourage them to implement American-style civil rights laws (right to free speech, right to own firearms), then perhaps those two areas will become safer over time (more weight behind the possibility of enactment of democratically ratified civil rights protection by a direct vote of the people), and Americans could find places to open up new jobs, new businesses, and live for low costs.

[Polpolion]

to hell with that, let's just annex the entire middle east

[Nuke]

yep, lets go take their jerbs!

[Scotty]

Yes, because increasing overt Western influence in the Middle East will solve everyone's problems.  Oh wait, it's what started most of the whole thing.

No, this is not a good idea.

[General Battuta]

i suspect a shortage of firearms is not the middle east's problem

nor for that matter a shortage of americans trying to play white man's burden

[Bobboau]

anyone who tried to do that would be dead within a week. I'm being very generous with that time scale, more likely withing 3 days.

[MP-Ryan]

i suspect a shortage of firearms is not the middle east's problem

nor for that matter a shortage of americans trying to play white man's burden

I was going to write a nuanced response to UT, but then I read this and I think you've summed it up quite nicely, in addition to nearly making me fall out of my chair laughing.

[Aardwolf]

@UT: Jobs? Meh. Civil rights? See my response to Battuta below.

@Scotty: Our presence definitely has had a lot to do with the problems in the Middle East, but I think they dislike our military presence more than they dislike our Starbucks. Then again, some of bin Laden's rants almost sounded Marxist, so idk.

@Battuta: So we are to allow them to repress their women and to sentence Christians, atheists, etc. to death, forever? On the one hand, I suppose we have to ask ourselves "what right do we have to intervene in their social affairs?" But on the other hand, think about what that will mean in the long-term. Compare:

Suppose I made a space opera setting wherein the good guys are the Polish Space Navy, and the bad guys are the Russian Star Fleet. And let's throw in the Neo-Aryan Resistance Force for good measure. Just from reading the back of the book/box you'd probably think "this is the stupidest premise ever".

But if we just "agree to disagree" on how they should treat their women and their infidels then regardless of whether it would be 'progress' for them to change odds are they won't. I forgot how I was going to finish this argument... something something nation-states. Bleh.

Edit: also try to work in "gulags on mars" somewhere in there.

[General Battuta]

@Battuta: So we are to allow them to repress their women and to sentence Christians, atheists, etc. to death, forever? On the one hand, I suppose we have to ask ourselves "what right do we have to intervene in their social affairs?" But on the other hand, think about what that will mean in the long-term. Compare:

Suppose I made a space opera setting wherein the good guys are the Polish Space Navy, and the bad guys are the Russian Star Fleet. And let's throw in the Neo-Aryan Resistance Force for good measure. Just from reading the back of the book/box you'd probably think "this is the stupidest premise ever".

But if we just "agree to disagree" on how they should treat their women and their infidels then regardless of whether it would be 'progress' for them to change odds are they won't. I forgot how I was going to finish this argument... something something nation-states. Bleh.

Edit: also try to work in "gulags on mars" somewhere in there.

were you high when you wrote this post, it makes zero sense and goes nowhere

there are enormous, entrenched social problems in the middle east. they will be solved by people from the middle east, people working to better themselves and their environment, people who may well look west for inspiration. we should support these brave people! exactly how to do that is an open, messy question that no one should pretend to have a good and settled answer to

[Nuke]

nuke the site from orbit. its the only way to be sure.

[Aardwolf]

@Nuke: derp

@Battuta: No I was not high As stated in the post "I forgot how I was going to finish this argument... something something nation-states."

Trying again:

• Maybe their society will evolve over time (perhaps due to primarily internal forces, i.e. "people from the middle east ... working to better themselves and their environment")... but if we leave everything to internal pressure, don't expect any sort of convergent evolution. They'll be as different from us then as they are now, and by then we may well view what they're doing as some new horrible civil rights abuse.
• Space is cool. Every kid wants to be an astronaut. Let's go build a moon base!
• If we build a moonbase and 'we' still refers to "a nation state" rather than "the people of earth", then there will surely be a 'they' (whatever other nation-states exist) who will also want to have a moonbase, and they'll bring all their drama with them.
• The part that connects the other parts! Nation-state vs. nation-state is just like society vs. society. And I don't particularly want to have eight different factions which can't together resolve their terrestrial problems all be working on bringing that drama into space... even two factions is too many. But that's where we're headed (see point 1).

[General Battuta]

i think you are actually high

nobody has advocated leaving everything to internal pressure, since no such thing exists in the modern world except maybe for uncontacted amazon tribes or some **** like that i don't know. it's a platitude that 'change comes from within', but it's also true -- any revolution in human affairs in the middle east requires the development of a modestly secular middle class that embraces liberal democratic values. mighty whitey intervening by unsubtle means doesn't directly achieve this objective and may even contravene it. it's complicated! it's about ideas and economics and fuzzy intangible **** like that!

i'm pretty sure you don't have to worry about 'them' (this is not really a very good term to use since it speaks to some kind of phantom generalized outgroup rather than the enormously diverse complex that is the middle east) building an alien moonbase and attacking your future space empire with their hijab-clad antimatter suicide virgins

[Dragon]

Suppose I made a space opera setting wherein the good guys are the Polish Space Navy, and the bad guys are the Russian Star Fleet. And let's throw in the Neo-Aryan Resistance Force for good measure. Just from reading the back of the book/box you'd probably think "this is the stupidest premise ever".

Of course it's a stupid premise. Poland couldn't even get it's new corvette out of the dock (yeah, the one costing as much an an aircraft carrier), nevermind a space navy. 

[Hellstryker]

So I don't want to derail or anything but I'm just going to chime in and say I'd totally read a book about a Polish Space Navy.

[Dragon]

It'd be innovative, but I'd like to see how one would justify going from 1,5 of an old OHP and a couple of dinghies to anything space worthy. Last time Polish shipyard tried to build something modern (the Gawron corvette), it ended up costing more than we could buy an aircraft carrier for, and ended up canceled with only the bare-bones hull finished. If the Americans were building it, they'd have a fleet of these things operational by now, at 1/10 the cost. It's hardly limited to military stuff either, just look at the new stadium in Warsaw.
But that's the matter for another thread.

[pecenipicek]

It'd be innovative, but I'd like to see how one would justify going from 1,5 of an old OHP and a couple of dinghies to anything space worthy. Last time Polish shipyard tried to build something modern (the Gawron corvette), it ended up costing more than we could buy an aircraft carrier for, and ended up canceled with only the bare-bones hull finished. If the Americans were building it, they'd have a fleet of these things operational by now, at 1/10 the cost. It's hardly limited to military stuff either, just look at the new stadium in Warsaw.
But that's the matter for another thread.

The reason for the failure is called "Lack of industrial capacity and established high-tech industry".

* pecenipicek points to the croatian military and "navy"...

[Dragon]

That's not the only problem. The industrial capacity is there (though the shipyards are going bankrupt due to poor management, they once were among the best in Europe). One of the main reason for these failures is WTH choice of contractors. Those were neither the cheapest nor the best offers available. On the other hand, they had some "friends" in just the right place. As for high-tech industry, everybody says Poland is capable in that regard. Except it isn't, but that doesn't seem to stop anyone. And whenever they buy something from abroad, the decisions often result in a "WTH" reaction.

Of course, it's off topic, but I guess that most people here agree that the idea presented in OP is not very good.

[pecenipicek]

That's not the only problem. The industrial capacity is there (though the shipyards are going bankrupt due to poor management, they once were among the best in Europe). One of the main reason for these failures is WTH choice of contractors. Those were neither the cheapest nor the best offers available. On the other hand, they had some "friends" in just the right place. As for high-tech industry, everybody says Poland is capable in that regard. Except it isn't, but that doesn't seem to stop anyone. And whenever they buy something from abroad, the decisions often result in a "WTH" reaction.

Of course, it's off topic, but I guess that most people here agree that the idea presented in OP is not very good.

its abso****inlutely the same here.

[IceFire]

I do wonder...instead of worrying about what the middle east is doing with regards to human rights and human decency... perhaps people should be having a look at home and making sure that the line in the sand that was drawn decades or a century ago is being upheld. I see, in some political corners, both in the US and Canada that there is a slide backwards.

[Aardwolf]

Yeah, what the ****, Holder?