Author Topic: How to make dogfights last longer  (Read 5290 times)

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Offline SF-Junky

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How to make dogfights last longer
In FreeSpace most dogfights usually don't take longer than a few seconds unless the enemy moves in wave after wave after wave. I'm a bit sick of this as it is not very realstic (please no lectures at this point about how realistic space-sims are ;)) when the players squadron finishes off five times as many hostile craft.

That is why I'm playing around with the bp2 ai a little bit. I want the AI to be very evasive and very competent with its shield manegement but not very accurate in its weapon handling.

What do you think? Stupid idea? Good idea? Any tips? :)

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
Obligatory "no realism in mah FS".

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Offline Nuke

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
i actually think the best way to prolong dogfights is to cripple guided weapons. make locks take longer, reduce missile maneuverability, reduce missile count, disallow or limit the availability support ships, etc. secondly, for primary weapons, cripple the accuracy of weapons at the top end of the dps scale, for example using $fof: or reducing weapon velocity. third thing you want to do is make ships faster and more nimble. if you want to take things a bit further you can do all kinds of cool things with armor and subsystems. for example give the ships hull a really resilient armor type, and use standard armor on subsystems, and lots of extra subsystems. this will reward accurate shooting, and require the shooter to take calculating shots against subsystems, instead of just shooting the hull. as the subsystems get shot off, they will take some percentage of the hull with em. to prevent crippling shots, like against engines or weapons, harden those subsystems.

make weapons damage so ridiculously complex that players have a hard time figuring out which weapons give an advantage and which ones are total crap for a particular situation. **** with their heads, make the standard issue weapon really effective in certain situations, where the advanced weapons have trouble. lots of damage types, lots of armor types, sweet spots and penalties. if you 20 of a fighter that a particular weapon is good at taking out, then throw in an ace that has armor that is really effective against that weapon.

not sure what you can do with ai these days though, might be possible to give them survival instincts up the wazoo. so il leave that one open. i usually tend to prefer to make ships easier to kill so that the player has to have good situational awareness to survive. you can kill that ship in front of you, but what about the one to port and the two behind you?
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Offline headdie

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
There are options in the AI and AI_profiles tables that help make the AI act more intelligently, Fury AI is a good example of this.

Like Nuke said you can nerf weapon damage either:
directly through damage amounts
 - Armour table
 - Rate of fire - this has two effects, one it changes the damage per second, also it gives the AI more time to react to being hit.
 - $Armor Factor:/$Shield Factor:/$Subsystem Factor: - specialise your more powerful weapons
 - $FoF: and weapon speed can be useful to effect accuracy, again weapon speed gives the AI more time to react when hit
 - With secondary weapons you can make unguided weapons more powerful than guided and/or make guided weapons massive in terms of cappacity

You can also apply ammo counts to your more powerful primary weapons

Weapon lifetime can be useful as well, shorter weapon lifetimes force close quarters fighting which penalises slow rates of fire while longer lifetimes penalises slower weapon speeds

When you design missions be careful how many of the power weapons you let the player(wings) have, you don't have to give the player(s) enough Kaysers to outfit the entire wing

If your storyline supports it you can table in ship hull regeneration

Use Sexps to brake things occasionally for the player, for example if your mod has powerful missiles then disallow guided missiles in mission if an AWACs jumps in or something (I am sure this is possible at any rate) to represent aspect lock jamming.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 06:55:29 am by headdie »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
I don't think I agree with Nuke. When we were wrapping up the Fury AI for BP2 we realized that guided weapons had become nearly useless just because the AI was so much better - no tableside alterations required.

 

Offline Fury

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
guided weapons had become nearly useless just because the AI was so much better - no tableside alterations required.
That's only because of backwards compatibility with AoA and of course FS2. If that hadn't been an issue, there was a lot that could have been done to improve guided missiles.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
Indeed. Fury's AI+improved missiles=realistic, hard dogfights. Also, play on Insane. It removes all buffs to the player, making combat much more tactical, and more difficult.

 

Offline SF-Junky

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
To be honest I don't really like the approach of improving armor respectively reducing damage as I don't like the idea of a small fighter taking dozens of hits. I'll try to stick with AI and AI_profile. Let's see what I can do. :)

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
To be honest I don't really like the approach of improving armor respectively reducing damage as I don't like the idea of a small fighter taking dozens of hits. I'll try to stick with AI and AI_profile. Let's see what I can do. :)

You are pretty wise; we found that as AI quality increases, speed and maneuverability becomes way more important than shield and armor strength in AI vs AI fights.

 

Offline SF-Junky

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
Uhm, can anyone explain me what $AI In Range Time: is after all? I don't understand the wiki description. What does that:
Quote
Defines the seconds added to the time it takes for an enemy to come in range of (i.e. target) a friendly ship
mean in English?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
Pretty simple, I think. Say you have a gun with range 700m.

If your ship has $AI In Range Time: 0, when it comes within 700m of an enemy, it starts firing.

If your ship has $AI In Range Time: 1, when it comes within 700m of enemy, it waits a second to start firing.

(This might not be weapon-specific, idk)

 

Offline SF-Junky

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
Hm, kay, that makes sense, after all.

 

Offline TopAce

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
Edited the Wiki description.

Quote
The delay (in seconds) for the AI to fire its weapons after getting in range.

Is this wording better?
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Offline SF-Junky

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
Much better. *thumbsup*

So, if the value is smaller than 0 it means the AI fires its weapons before actually coming within range, yes?

 

Offline Fury

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
Actually, IIRC that controls how quickly AI gains max accuracy of their primaries. -1 means instantly, 0 means two seconds and anything higher than 0 adds to the two seconds.

So if you have a value of 2.5, AI would gain max accuracy of its primaries in 4.5 seconds of target coming into range. Until then, accuracy slowly climbs and maxes out at 4.5 seconds. Unfortunately I do not know what is starting accuracy.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
I don't think I agree with Nuke. When we were wrapping up the Fury AI for BP2 we realized that guided weapons had become nearly useless just because the AI was so much better - no tableside alterations required.

generally it has been my impression that missile kills were kinda cheap, and i kinda feel that expert gunnery should trump missiles every time. missiles should be good enough to get by on, however it should not be what the pros use. of course if you can reduce the effectiveness of missiles by improving ai then that achieves the same goal as crippling the missiles.
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Offline KyadCK

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
Make the AI run away when under heavy fire.

Thats it.

One of the single biggest pains in the ass in BPmulti is trying to chase down a Kent or Atalanta that doesn't want to be hit and is actively focused on getting away. Eventually the strategy was formed that if you want to kill it, you have to leave it alone for a while, turn your back, and wait for it to come to you. The fact that most AI attempt to out turn you and attack you instead of getting away is one of the reasosn fights are so quick.


I kinda feel that expert gunnery should trump missiles every time. missiles should be good enough to get by on, however it should not be what the pros use. of course if you can reduce the effectiveness of missiles by improving ai then that achieves the same goal as crippling the missiles.

You pretty much described any PvP match in multi. Any good human pilot can dodge hornets all day long while they close in to kill with primaries and dumbfire.
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Offline Commander Zane

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
Any pilot can dodge Hornets. :P

 

Offline SF-Junky

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
Make the AI run away when under heavy fire.

Thats it.

One of the single biggest pains in the ass in BPmulti is trying to chase down a Kent or Atalanta that doesn't want to be hit and is actively focused on getting away. Eventually the strategy was formed that if you want to kill it, you have to leave it alone for a while, turn your back, and wait for it to come to you. The fact that most AI attempt to out turn you and attack you instead of getting away is one of the reasosn fights are so quick.
That would mean: Low courage, high get away chance.

Ironically, the most cowardly enemy is the one which is most difficult to kill...

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: How to make dogfights last longer
i wouldn't call it cowardice to not want to give alpha 1 free kills. besides survival is half the battle.
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