[jr2]

Basically, this dude supposedly found a way to use radio waves to get the hydrogen and oxygen out of salt water and burn it.  He found this whilst trying to find a cure for cancer, by injecting patients with nano-particles of gold (which are attracted to abnormalities of cancer cells and ignore regular cells) and then use a radio frequency generator to heat up and kill the cancer cells.

APV (?) company in Akron, OH supposedly checked it out, and the saltwater burns at 1500 degrees Centigrade


http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/video/33kPzu

OK, HLP, tear it up, or confirm... possible?

EDIT: No Nuke, you are NOT allowed to mount an orbital radio frequency generator tuned to burn the world's oceans.  You want to get rid of 99.9% of human life, not all life.  Right, Nuke?  Nuke?   Nuuuke...?  -runs off to go catch Nuke before he can assemble and build an orbital death ray-

[samiam]

Probably doesn't work.

[jr2]

I'm aware that that is a distinct possibility, however, since this appears to be featured on the news, I would hope that it also appears, at least, to work...

EDIT:
es" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:John_Kanzius_Produces_Hydrogen_from_Salt_Water_Using_Radio_Wav es

The late John Kanzius found a way to burn salt water with the same radio wave machine he is using to kill cancer cells.
Kanzius was testing his external radio-wave generator to see if it could desalinate salt water, and the water ignited. A university chemist determined that the process is generating hydrogen, which can be burned as fuel.
While the phenomenon is interesting, it is not yet practical for energy generation as long as more energy is consumed by the radio frequency device than is produced for burning. Efficiency-wise, they started at around 76 percent of Faraday's theoretical limit. (Other Hydrogen-from-Water methods, such as the one being pursued by Bob Boyce, are approaching 7x Faraday). They subsequently quietly reported that they surpassed 100% efficiency, which would mean that the system is somehow harnessing environmental energy such as from the zero point or some other yet-to-be discovered phenomenon.
Another problem to be overcome from burning salt water is the liberation of toxic chlorine (from the Cl of NaCl/salt).
Kanzius said if someone wants to buy up the rights to the technology, that would be fine. He would use the funds to finance his quest to cure cancer.

I guess this is "news" from ~2009??

So, it either doesn't work, or does and someone shut it down.  -_-

EDIT2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kanzius  (has 5 or 6 patents and other sources linked)

EDIT3: I guess why it doesn't work is that it takes more energy to generate the radio waves than is produced by the 1500C fire... however, there appear to be some claims that they got around that somehow, but no real... details. 

If you want to make a big discovery, release the details on the internet.  You might not get rich, but I'm betting you won't ever have to pay for a meal or hotel room if you put your mug in with the invention.  (Oh, I guess you'd have to patent it and 'release' it somehow, otherwise some big company would steal it from you.)

[Nuke]

EDIT: No Nuke, you are NOT allowed to mount an orbital radio frequency generator tuned to burn the world's oceans.  You want to get rid of 99.9% of human life, not all life.  Right, Nuke?  Nuke?   Nuuuke...?  -runs off to go catch Nuke before he can assemble and build an orbital death ray-

honestly i havent really decided whether i want to kill all life or just most of it. i had always operated on the assumption that a near extinction event will pull humanity's collective head out of its collective ass and build a civilization that will put everything that has come before to shame. unfortunately, these days im starting to doubt that it will happen that way. so sterilizing the earth is starting to sound like a really good idea.

[Unknown Target]

Basically, this dude supposedly found a way to use radio waves to get the hydrogen and oxygen out of salt water and burn it.  He found this whilst trying to find a cure for cancer, by injecting patients with nano-particles of gold (which are attracted to abnormalities of cancer cells and ignore regular cells) and then use a radio frequency generator to heat up and kill the cancer cells.

Dunno about the second one. But doesn't the first produce the same results as hydrolysis?

[jr2]

Yes, but the electrodes wear out .. radio waves don't.

The whole problem is putting too much power in and not getting enough out.  Which, again, supposedly was solved, but -0- evidence for it.

Guess that will teach me to believe that people wouldn't go and try to make a big fuss out something that might not even be worth mentioning.  One of my first questions would have been 1) how much energy do those radio waves take?  And perhaps, depending on the answer I got, 2) how much can you reduce that energy requirement?

[Mongoose]

I can't speak for the "burning water" bit, but I can confirm the potential applications for magnetic nanoparticles in cancer treatment.  The lab I did undergrad research in was looking into the same stuff.

[Mikes]

EDIT: No Nuke, you are NOT allowed to mount an orbital radio frequency generator tuned to burn the world's oceans.  You want to get rid of 99.9% of human life, not all life.  Right, Nuke?  Nuke?   Nuuuke...?  -runs off to go catch Nuke before he can assemble and build an orbital death ray-

honestly i havent really decided whether i want to kill all life or just most of it. i had always operated on the assumption that a near extinction event will pull humanity's collective head out of its collective ass and build a civilization that will put everything that has come before to shame. unfortunately, these days im starting to doubt that it will happen that way. so sterilizing the earth is starting to sound like a really good idea.

For collective humanity to pull their head out of their ass the notion that pulling your head out of your ass is a good thing would have to reach critical mass and become part of the Zeitgeist.

A near extinction event would propably have a short term effect only, if any. Starting from scratch, especially with short term problems like "survival" to worry about... would likely just lead to a repetition of the same mistakes. I think humanity sort knows how to recover from near catastrophes or world wars... what they don't yet know is how to happily live ever after. A new world war or near extinction event would merely repeat the cycle. And even if humanity gets wiped out who is to say that evolutions successors are gonna be any better, for all we know, they might invent soap operas, reality TV and talk shows a whole century earlier! harr.

So dear Nuke... in my eyes you are proposing to restart the cycle instead of finding a solution - or in other words: Your ideas are very much part of the problem.

Oups... did I just commit Blasphemy in Nukeism? ... what's that red laser target dot on my lawn?

[BlueFlames]

Second Law of Thermodynamics.

You cannot split water into hydrogen and oxygen, then turn that back into water, without putting more energy into the system in the first reaction than you get out of the second.  It doesn't matter if the energy put in through the first reaction comes from electricity, radio waves, or magical fairy flatulance.  If you build a generator that runs off of "burning" salt water and try to power the radio transmitter with the generator, it's going to steadily lose energy, until the system shuts down.  It's just like every other perpetual motion machine for which USPTO rightfully and automatically denies patents.

That news report is what happens when media companies decide that proper, educated science correspondents are expendable in rough economic times.  It's kind of infuriating, really.

[samiam]

I can't speak for the "burning water" bit, but I can confirm the potential applications for magnetic nanoparticles in cancer treatment.  The lab I did undergrad research in was looking into the same stuff.

So why are you withholding the cure for cancer from the world?

[Mongoose]

I'm waiting for someone to pay me...one million dollars!

[Nuke]

EDIT: No Nuke, you are NOT allowed to mount an orbital radio frequency generator tuned to burn the world's oceans.  You want to get rid of 99.9% of human life, not all life.  Right, Nuke?  Nuke?   Nuuuke...?  -runs off to go catch Nuke before he can assemble and build an orbital death ray-

honestly i havent really decided whether i want to kill all life or just most of it. i had always operated on the assumption that a near extinction event will pull humanity's collective head out of its collective ass and build a civilization that will put everything that has come before to shame. unfortunately, these days im starting to doubt that it will happen that way. so sterilizing the earth is starting to sound like a really good idea.

For collective humanity to pull their head out of their ass the notion that pulling your head out of your ass is a good thing would have to reach critical mass and become part of the Zeitgeist.

A near extinction event would propably have a short term effect only, if any. Starting from scratch, especially with short term problems like "survival" to worry about... would likely just lead to a repetition of the same mistakes. I think humanity sort knows how to recover from near catastrophes or world wars... what they don't yet know is how to happily live ever after. A new world war or near extinction event would merely repeat the cycle. And even if humanity gets wiped out who is to say that evolutions successors are gonna be any better, for all we know, they might invent soap operas, reality TV and talk shows a whole century earlier! harr.

So dear Nuke... in my eyes you are proposing to restart the cycle instead of finding a solution - or in other words: Your ideas are very much part of the problem.

Oups... did I just commit Blasphemy in Nukeism? ... what's that red laser target dot on my lawn?

well this is why the sterilization strategy is better. if i let there be survivors, id probably have to take other steps, like creating a religion for the survivors or something to make sure there is another nuke somewhere down the line, to repeat the process, and likewise expect that nuke to do the same so that the cycle of nukeage continues. dont mind the red dot, its just a little target practice.

[Alex Heartnet]

Oh, yeah, the big energy companies will just love to see THIS cut into their profits.  It won't surprise me if some oil baron decides to use some of his considerable wealth to try and suppress this 'new' technology.

[Klaustrophobia]

just to re-iterate....

Second Law of Thermodynamics.

You cannot split water into hydrogen and oxygen, then turn that back into water, without putting more energy into the system in the first reaction than you get out of the second.  It doesn't matter if the energy put in through the first reaction comes from electricity, radio waves, or magical fairy flatulance.  If you build a generator that runs off of "burning" salt water and try to power the radio transmitter with the generator, it's going to steadily lose energy, until the system shuts down.  It's just like every other perpetual motion machine for which USPTO rightfully and automatically denies patents.

That news report is what happens when media companies decide that proper, educated science correspondents are expendable in rough economic times.  It's kind of infuriating, really.

so no, energy companies DON'T have to worry about losing profits to this.

[Alex Heartnet]

Why does this even need to be made into a perputual motion machine?  Why not just put more salt water in when it runs out.

Plus, it is foolish to dismiss a new idea as 'impossible' just because it doesn't fit with science as it is currently understood.  A lot of historical inventions were considered to be impossible to do at the time.

[pecenipicek]

Why does this even need to be made into a perputual motion machine?  Why not just put more salt water in when it runs out.

where do you get the energy to get the water to the machine when it runs out?the law is still heftily in effect.

[BlueFlames]

Why does this even need to be made into a perputual motion machine?  Why not just put more salt water in when it runs out.

It doesn't need to be made into a perpetual motion machine, and it's not an issue of the water running out.  The machine splits water into its base components - hydrogen and oxygen - using energy, in the form of radio waves, to do so.  The hydrogen and oxygen then react, producing water and thermal energy.  The water never runs out because it's being reconstructed during the second reaction.  It's not a useful energy source, since the thermal energy in that flame is less than the energy of the radiowaves being used to produce the flame.  The problem is that the input energy is less than the output energy.

Plus, it is foolish to dismiss a new idea as 'impossible' just because it doesn't fit with science as it is currently understood.

This isn't revolutionary science.  This is a demonstration that first-year Physics students can assemble as a project to present to their classmates.  Though the application in cancer research is relatively new, the "energy-production" side all relies on well-understood principles, all of which will tell you that there's no net energy production.

[Alex Heartnet]

If one search engines "Water Powered Engine" one will find hundreds of articles on the subject, some as old as 2005!  Even if this is but a hoax, it is a really persistent one.

Edit:  Apparently the 'impossible' salt water engine is a $15 toy

http://www.amazon.com/Elenco-Salt-Water-Fuel-Cell/dp/B004PBWQTS

http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/content/saltwater.html

[BlueFlames]

Edit:  Apparently the 'impossible' salt water engine is a $15 toy

http://www.amazon.com/Elenco-Salt-Water-Fuel-Cell/dp/B004PBWQTS

http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/content/saltwater.html

You are desperately grabbing at straws.  That fuel cell is an exercise in electrolysis, not the burning of hydrogen and oxygen.  This is effectively a chemical cell/battery.  You'd have realized that, if you'd have bothered to read the second page you referenced.

[Alex Heartnet]

You are desperately grabbing at straws.  That fuel cell is an exercise in electrolysis, not the burning of hydrogen and oxygen.  This is effectively a chemical cell/battery.  You'd have realized that, if you'd have bothered to read the second page you referenced.

It's still energy from salt water, even if the process may be different.  And it won't be marketed as a toy if it didn't work.

Oh wait, according to wikipedia, the process might be the same after all, if this is what you mean by 'burning' hydrogen and oxygen...  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water