Author Topic: Toyota making up for the Prius?  (Read 2761 times)

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Toyota making up for the Prius?


That is the Toyota GT-86/Scion FR-S.

It looks good, if you can forgive the Scion badge.  It's got a 200hp flat-four (naturally-aspirated!), so it goes like stink.  It's rear-wheel drive, so you can actually have some fun with it, when driving at the edge of the envelope.  It sounds like they're going to be primarily produced with the six-speed manual transmission, so proper driving enthusiasts don't have to scour the ****ing nation to avoid buying one with a torque converter.  And the price point?  The price for all of this gloriousness?  $25,000.  Considering that the next RWD sports car up (note the designation is "sports car," not "muscle car") from this is a Porsche Boxter or Lotus Elise at double the price, the GT-86 looks pretty ****ing amazing.

I don't usually get this excited over a new car's debut, as they're either underwhelming (Honda CR-Z), completely expected from the manufacturer (Ford Focus ST (i.e. not the Focus RS, again)), and/or priced completely beyond any car budget I could hope to have in the next four decades (any supercar, but the McClaren MP4-12C, in particular).  The GT-86 comes as a real shock, given Toyota's previous preoccupation with safety stats and raw volume of sales.  Early reviews are making it sound like it lives up to the promise of its spec sheets, and the $25,000 is showing up on advertising materials making it seem pretty well locked-in as the MSRP.  I'm kind of in shock and expecting to wake up from this dream, in a world where the GT-86 either never existed or costs $90,000, as Japanese sports cars tend to try to compete in the wrong tier.

If these come out and don't spontaneously combust on a regular basis, I think I know what car I'll be buying in the 2015 or 2016 model year.

  

Offline Wobble73

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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
One comment.....I'm surprised they haven't put a Lexus Badge on it and doubled/tripled the price.
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Offline z64555

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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
I might have to look into this... I've been looking for a new car recently, but have been disgusted by the fact "Sportscar" and "Manual Transmission" are all-but extinct terms to the "car" dealers in my area.

I mean, seriously, not every backcountry born hick wants a truck half the size of a cattle barn (and shares the same color).
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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
I might have to look into this... I've been looking for a new car recently, but have been disgusted by the fact "Sportscar" and "Manual Transmission" are all-but extinct terms to the "car" dealers in my area.

It's not so much the dealers as what the manufacturers send them, and it's not so much your area as the entire United States (and possibly the rest of the North American market too).  When I bought my Focus coupe a couple years back, the dealership in my area had to have one driven in from 500 miles away, because that was the nearest dealership that had one with a manual gearbox.  If I didn't want one in silver, they'd have had to bring it in from 1,000 miles away.

It's not just a problem for us small-time, individual buyers.  The Top Gear US program had a similar problem, when trying to do a comparison of three of the top-end muscle cars.  The only Camero that GM could contribute for the show, in time for filming, was one with a torque converter.

Of course, the global economic recession and elevation of gas prices compounded the issue of finding affordable sports cars.  It's tough to sell automotive toys, when people are thinking about how they can tighten their pursestrings, and so a lot of manufacturers stripped their lineups down to core brands.  Really, up to now, if you wanted a sports car and didn't have at least entry-level supercar money, your choices were the Mazda MX-5/Miata or the Mazda RX-8, both of which have been pretty stagnant designs for quite a while.  I suppose Mitsubishi with the Evo and Subaru with the WRX were options for a somewhat higher price, if you just wanted something ludicrously fast, but as turbocharged, four-wheel drive, road-going rally cars, they're much different animals from a more traditional sports car.

But yeah, I'm super-jazzed about seeing a new rear-wheel drive sports car come onto the market in this price bracket.  I do hope it heralds a new generation of such vehicles.

 
Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
200 HP for 25 000 USD...

For 22 310 USD (this is the base price, no optional features included) one could get a 305 HP Ford Mustang V6 with a 6 speed manual. While paying 3 000 more to get the slightly higher quality of a Toyota might make sense (and the gap is nowhere near as large as it was in the late 80's-early '90s so it might not), losing 100 HP along the price increase definitely doesn't.
The Mustang also gets 31 MPG highway.

Then there is the Mazda MX-5. This one does fail against the new Scion with just 167 HP and less gas mileage than the V6 Mustang for a V6 Mustang price. It's definitely smaller so it may corner and slalom better though. 28 MPG on the highway.

And finally I'll add a Subaru Impreza WRX in the mix- starting at 25 595 USD there's 265 HP. Less than that of a Mustang, but this car delivers power to all 4 wheels. It's also most likely a bit lighter so the 40 HP less won't hurt its performance. 25 MPG highway.

All in all, the new Scion FR-S does not in any way look special in its price range. It's just a new Celica.

Edit: The Mazda gets the added feature of being a convertible.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 12:40:17 pm by BengalTiger »
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Offline IceFire

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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
Mmmm I don't think this is the kind of car that you compare notes on for horsepower. It's more of a purpose built cornering/handling machine for a reasonable price.

It's very small and lightweight and not nearly the size or weight of a Mustang. It's not even as big as the Genesis Coupe.
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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
IceFire's hit the nail on the head with the muscle cars.  It's not a horsepower contest, which was why I explicitly made the distinction in my first post of sports car, as opposed to muscle car.  There's a balance to be struck by a sports car.  Yes, speed is a big deal, and power is a big component of that, but if you have to bleed off all of that speed on approach to a curve/corner, then it's not actually a fast car on open roads or closed circuits.  Fast on a drag strip?  Sure, but drag strips don't get me or a lot of other driving enthusiasts excited the way a track or mountain road does.

The road-going rally cars (i.e. the WRX and Evo X) I dismiss as being an entirely different driving experience.  They're technical marvels, and I'm not going to deny that in the least, but a turbo-charged, four-wheel drive beast, tamed by a host of slightly mad computer management systems is not anywhere near the same as a naturally-aspirated, rear-wheel drive vehicle that minimizes anything that might insulate the driver from the feedback of the car and road.  The latter lets you get to the edge of the car's capabilities and have some fun there.  The former tries to prevent itself from reaching those limits, meaning that you need to derive your entertainment from working to reach those limits or working well within them.

It's not that the muscle cars or road-going rally cars are necessarily worse, but they don't do the same thing that sports cars do, and so comparing them is about as useful as throwing pick-up trucks and minivans into the mix.  I notice you didn't bring up the Honda Odyssey and its inexplicible 248 horsepower.  That's just fine, though, because it's equally irrelevant.  I'm personally excited for the GT-86/FR-S because it's a car that wouldn't make me compromise.  It's quick; it handles well; the driver drives the car, rather than the other way around, and I can save for three to four years to buy one, not thirty to forty.  If you want the kind of experience that a muscle car or road-going rally car offers, I'm not criticising.  I can see the appeal and even get absorbed in it to a certain degree, but I prefer the experience of a sports car, and in recent years, there just hasn't been many options in the entry-level pricing tier.  That's why the GT-86 is so exciting!  It's a purist's sports car that doesn't require you to shell out Porsche money.

Now, the Mazda MX-5 is a great car and definately sets the bar that the GT-86 has to surpass, but you're right about about the Mazda's weaknesses.  It's engine is criminally underpowered for the chassis.  Almost anyone with the money to do so fits a forced-induction system to the engine, because the car can handle much higher speeds through the bends than the engine will allow for.  The current generation MX-5 is also seven years old and getting overdue for another revision.  It's falling way behind newer cars that are starting to feature direct-injected engines, as you indirectly noted by showing that its less powerful and less efficient than anything else in the price range.  Really, aside from being front-wheel drive (and we'll get to this in a minute), the third-gen Focus provides performance only slightly inferior to the current MX-5.  Specifically, the Focus is about 400lbs heavier and seven horsepower short of the MX-5.  When the non-sport versions of econoboxes are catching up to your sports car, it's time to change something.

So, yes, you named one competitor to the GT-86, which is kind of the point.  This sector of the market lacks choices for consumers.  Seeing a new option pop in, from Toyota of all places, is a good sign for driving enthusiasts.  (It doesn't hurt that it's a damn nice option, even with so little competition.)  After all, if a manufacturer as notoriously boring as Toyota can make a proper sports car for a reasonable price, how will other manufacturers respond?  Hell, even if nobody else responds, this should at least spur Mazda to stop resting on its laurels and make the MX-5 and/or RX-8 respectable again, and then there will be a more appealing number of options than "Buy a Mazda or buy nothing, until you can afford a Porsche Boxster."

Quote
All in all, the new Scion FR-S does not in any way look special in its price range. It's just a new Celica.

I....  Wat?  Let's break this down....

A)  The Celica, particularly in its final generation, was pretty ****ing awesome*, and someone should be stabbed for stopping its production.  Saying, "[Anything] is just a new Celica," shows that you grossly underestimate the Celica.  Find one and take it on a test drive in the mountains.  You will have to make a conscious effort not to enjoy yourself, unless you just hate driving.

B)  Note the asterisk in point 'A'.  Statements of the Celica's quality as a sports car are legally obligated to come with the caveat, "...but it's front-wheel drive."  In a sports car, front-wheel drive is a critical weakness, on par with being saddled with a torque converter.  When you open the taps, typically when coming out of a curve, it's just too easy to overwhelm the front wheels in a front-wheel drive car, so that you will be neither steering, nor accelerating, when you need to be doing both.  In a rear-wheel drive car, since the front wheels don't have to handle all of the engine's power, they are much more capable of steering the vehicle under acceleration.  With a skilled foot, you can even use the throttle to help point the car in the direction you want to go, and the first time you do it, you will be so immensely proud of yourself.  Point being, though, the GT-86/FR-S is a stronger design at a foundational level than the Celica.  The Celica was great*, and unless the GT-86 critically botches every other aspect of its design, it's going to turn out even better.

Who's next to try to bring me down from this car-dork high I've been on?  ;)

* - ...but it's front-wheel drive.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
Not that I'm much of a gearhead, but I notice that when you're jumping from this car straight to Porsche and the like, you're distinctly skipping the Corvette, which at least from what I understand qualifies as a "sports car."  Would a 'Vette fall outside of what you're looking for?

 
Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
Not that I'm much of a gearhead, but I notice that when you're jumping from this car straight to Porsche and the like, you're distinctly skipping the Corvette, which at least from what I understand qualifies as a "sports car."  Would a 'Vette fall outside of what you're looking for?

Actually, the 'Vette has done a really good job over the years and decades of transitioning from muscle car to sports car.  The higher-end models are daring to try to compete with Ferrari, and while they're not quite there yet, the way that car has evolved, you can see the Corvette getting there.  Unfortunately, with regards to price points, while the base-model Porsche Boxster costs $49,500, the base-model Corvette costs $49,600.  Corvettes cost Porsche money now!  (Actually, it scales up better, as the Corvette ZR1 costs significantly less than a Porsche Carrera Turbo S or GT2, but that's kind of tangential.)

 

Offline Wobble73

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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
Have you considered a Caterham K7

If your after a lightweight car that gives you more bang for your buck, you can't get much better!
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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
Well, the only info given in the original post included horsepower and price, so that's where I started at when doing the comparison.

And since the ability to turn is what you guys are looking for...

2011 Impreza WRX- 0.89 g on the skidpad, according to www.caranddriver.com

2006 MX-5 Miata- 0.9 g, same source.

2010 BMW M3- 0.9 g, based on insideline.com

2011 Ford Mustang V6- 0.91 g, same source

2011 Mustang GT- caranddriver.com claim they reached 0.94 g

2004 Caterham Super Seven Roadsport SV- 0.96 g

2005-2007 Corvette C6- 0.96 g, www.modernracer.com

2009 Bugatti Veyron 16.4, based on www.caranddriver.com- 1.00 g

2012 Corvette ZR1, according to www.chevrolet.com- 1.05g skid pad, or over 1.1g with available ZR1 High Performance Package

Scion FR-S- ???

And finally a car with slightly less grip:
2011 Dodge Challenger SRT8- 0.88 g on the skidpad, according to www.insideline.com. The fact that it weighs in at 1.9 tons and is a bit over 5 meters long makes this result pretty impressive.

Also note that the above does not show the whole picture on how cars handle. Of two cars that can pull similar g's on a turn the lighter one will most likely do slaloms quicker and get better results on a twisted race track. Lateral acceleration does mean everything on tracks with long sustained turns.

P.S. The Caterham begins at 31 160 USD (google currency calc, from GBP) and this version has 5.9 seconds 0-60 MPH. I have a strange feeling the FS-X will do just as good for $6000 less and with the added bonus of having rear seats...
For over $1000 less than the Caterham there's a 402 HP 2012 Mustang GT that actually has some room in the rear and a useful trunk, not to mention about 4.4 seconds 0-60...


One more edit: 2011 Honda Odyssey- 0.75 g on the skidpad, insideline.com :P
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 04:26:48 pm by BengalTiger »
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Offline IceFire

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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
According to the Inside Line test for the Subaru BRZ:

Skid pad, 200-ft. diameter (lateral g)   0.92

http://www.insideline.com/subaru/brz/2013/2013-subaru-brz-full-test-and-video.html

Given the Scion FR-S is the same car with the tinniest of suspension tunings I expect it will achieve the same result. Bear in mind that while some of the cars up there use specialized sport tires, the Scion FR-S comes stock equipped with low rolling resistance tires. The same tires used on a Prius with the Performance package. I imagine it's possible to get better numbers. Even that I suspect isn't entirely the point.

This is a purists Japanese sports car that kind of looks back at cars like the AE86 Corolla or a Datsun Z or maybe a Mazda RX-7 FB. I haven't driven one but everyone says how predictable and communicative it is. I honestly think if I were looking to buy a sports car of some kind this is the car I would look at first. It's not a monster... it's just a pure sports car and not one that requires any special treatment.
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Offline JGZinv

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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
a Datsun Z or

Someone said Datsun Z?

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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
According to the Inside Line test for the Subaru BRZ:

Skid pad, 200-ft. diameter (lateral g)   0.92
The Subaru gets to 60 MPH in 6 seconds (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1112_2013_subaru_brz_prototype_first_drive/), which is not bad.
While the V6 Mustang needs 5.5 (edmunds.com), it'll most likely be slower on a slalom.

Now is there any more/less 250 HP version of the the FR-S/BRZ/GT-86 planned? That would be a beast...
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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
A couple of reviewers have made mention of a supercharged version in the pipeline.  It probably won't be available during the first model year, but it sounds likely soon thereafter.

 

Offline IceFire

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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
a Datsun Z or

Someone said Datsun Z?

Command. Obligatory picture incoming.

Beauty!
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Offline IceFire

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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
According to the Inside Line test for the Subaru BRZ:

Skid pad, 200-ft. diameter (lateral g)   0.92
The Subaru gets to 60 MPH in 6 seconds (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1112_2013_subaru_brz_prototype_first_drive/), which is not bad.
While the V6 Mustang needs 5.5 (edmunds.com), it'll most likely be slower on a slalom.

Now is there any more/less 250 HP version of the the FR-S/BRZ/GT-86 planned? That would be a beast...

From Toyota/Subaru. Not right off the bat anyways... the engineers and planners have said specifically that this was meant to use a lightweight engine and be naturally aspirated to keep the weight and costs down. I could see a turbo in it's future... I know this engine is a bit unique but the Boxers have always had the ability to mount a turbo so I can't see it being very long before some pro tuners get to work. Maybe Toyota and/or Subaru will offer an official option at some point too.

I agree. That would be a beast.
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Offline IceFire

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Re: Toyota making up for the Prius?
Well that was quick... the V8 from the IS-F plus substantial modifications for this track version: http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/30/well-that-didnt-take-long-v8-powered-toyota-gt-86-drift-car-un/
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