Author Topic: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide  (Read 8065 times)

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Offline jr2

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
Hmm... I wonder what those quotes were.  Must've been them fabrications, there.. from when the history was re-writ.. :nervous:

 

Offline Sushi

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
to say that the war was all about slaves is just an oversimplification.

And to say that it wasn't about slaves at all isn't? :)


 
Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
to say that the war was all about slaves is just an oversimplification.

And to say that it wasn't about slaves at all isn't? :)


Downplaying the role of slavery in the Traitor States' decision to secede is not an oversimplification. It's a blatant falsehood.

 

Offline watsisname

Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
Let's fight about it. :V
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
this has been debated by historians for decades. and frankly i dont have the time for that kind of intellectual wankery.
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
Nuke may not, but I do!

Somehow I think you guys aren't seeing the whole picture. Without an issue to contest between the federal government and the states, there would be no reason to complain about limited state's rights, and without a federal government limiting state's rights there would be no reason to complain about state's rights either. Point being slavery is only an issue if state's rights are an issue as well, and state's rights being the super-set of the problem it seems more appropriate to refer to that. I don't think I've read a single declaration of secession in which slavery was the only issue being discussed (granted, I've only skimmed four of them just now). I don't think anyone was saying that slavery wasn't one of the most obvious manifestations of this problem. It's really a bit of an absurd discussion we're having, really. If you could only say that the cause of the civil war was "slavery" xor "state's rights" it would be more appropriate to choose state's rights since that includes the issue and the reason why it's an issue, but I don't think anyone here is taking a true/false test on this atm.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 11:13:06 pm by Polpolion »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
For those who claim that the Civil War was about slavery, explain why the Emancipation Proclamation didn't actually free slaves in the North. The side that supposedly were fighting to end slavery.
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
If it weren't about slavery, why write the Emancipation Proclamation at all?

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
My god! Could it be that the Civil War was in fact a much more complicated affair than we amateur historians on an obscure video game modding forum think it was? Is it even remotely conceivable that slavery was a major factor in the war, and yet was also not the sole reason for the war? Surely there's no way we could reach a kind of.... consensus or or.... middle ground so to speak. If we were to do that, we could avoid arguing about the US Civil War for ten pages, and that just wouldn't be in the spirit of HLP!  :(
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
My god! Could it be that the Civil War was in fact a much more complicated affair than we amateur historians on an obscure video game modding forum think it was? Is it even remotely conceivable that slavery was a major factor in the war, and yet was also not the sole reason for the war? Surely there's no way we could reach a kind of.... consensus or or.... middle ground so to speak. If we were to do that, we could avoid arguing about the US Civil War for ten pages, and that just wouldn't be in the spirit of HLP!  :(

No, it couldn't. I'm on the internet for ONE reason: information of questionable veracity and simplicity. Stop overcomplicating things with "reason" and "accuracy"!

 
Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
The problem with that is that the Southern states' only complaint about states' rights that actually matters (i.e., isn't either a blatant lie, complete bull****, or both) has to do with slavery.  And besides which, their own vice president explicitly admitted the whole thing was over slavery, as I quoted earlier.  The idea that the war was ever about states' rights at all came afterwards.

Anyway, it looks like only four states actually bothered putting together the reasons for their secession in a single document:  Mississippi, Georgia, Texas, and South Carolina.  I've looked at the statements of the others, and they're just legal stuff about how they voted for secession:  "Blah blah we secede blah blah union dissolved blah blah the North sucks."

Mississippi doesn't say much of interest; they start talking about how awesome slavery is and how terrible it is that the North wants to end it in the second sentence and never stop.

Georgia goes off the deep end.  In one sentence, they actually complain about the government paying for lighthouses and subsidizing fishermen.  They also spin some weird conspiracy theory about how the North is waging total economic warfare on them and using the federal government to do it.  They proceed to connect to the abolitionist movement in the North (what?) and essentially say that the Republican Party is a result of this grand economic conspiracy (what?).  After this little jaunt, they mostly rant about the North doesn't support slavery, none of the Northern states are complying with the Fugitive Slave Act and thus are in abrogation of their Constitutional responsibilities (which, I suppose, is technically true, but I'm not blaming them for it), and talk about how mean and terrible it is that slavery is forbidden in the territories.

Texas explicitly admits that they subsumed themselves into the US when they were (willingly) annexed, and maintains that they were explicitly admitted as a slave state, which is true.  They then have this to say:

"The controlling majority of the Federal Government, under various pretences and disguises, has so administered the same as to exclude the citizens of the Southern States, unless under odious and unconstitutional restrictions, from all the immense territory owned in common by all the States on the Pacific Ocean, for the avowed purpose of acquiring sufficient power in the common government to use it as a means of destroying the institutions of Texas and her sister slaveholding States."

Say what?  This is a blatant ****ing lie, as should be immediately obvious.  Of course, what they actually mean is that slavery was not permitted in any of the territories bought conquered from Mexico in the Mexican-American war.  That territory also wasn't "owned in common by all the States."  It was administered and owned by the federal government.  After this howler, they talk about Kansas and how bad the Northerners were there, when it was the Southerners who came in a rush to prevent Kansas from becoming a free state (Google "Bleeding Kansas" for more on that little episode).  They didn't succeed there; Kansas was admitted as a free state.  Anyway, they do actually have something that could possibly be a valid complaint in all this.  They complain that the federal government hasn't done enough to secure the borders of Texas against Mexican bandit and Indian incursion.  Of course, they then complain about how the government didn't pay them for their expenses in repelling these incursions.  My guess is they asked, and got told "that's a matter for the state police.  No, you aren't getting money from us for it."  Most of the rest of the document is either complaining about how the North hates slavery, or is full of effusive praise of how awesome slavery is.

Now we get to South Carolina, the first of the states to secede.  What do they have to say? They are in fact the only state that mentions states' rights in their Declaration of Secession, but pretty soon reveal that they were only talking about their right to own slaves.  Every single grievance they list is in relation to slavery or the abolition thereof.  As a subset of this, towards the end they also complain about the Republican Party, and how the duly elected President, Abraham Lincoln, (gasp!) opposes slavery, and has called for its abolition.

Also of interest may be this page, which details the differences between the US and CSA constitutions, and has the texts side by side.  The TL;DR is that the Confederate states only gained a few minor rights under the CSA Constitution, but the right to own slaves was put in in just about as ironclad language as possible in multiple places.  The CSA Constitution does not modify the Supremacy Clause, Interstate Commerce Clause, or the Necessary and Proper Clause, which tend to be major sticking points for states' rights activists.

Quote from: karajorma
For those who claim that the Civil War was about slavery, explain why the Emancipation Proclamation didn't actually free slaves in the North. The side that supposedly were fighting to end slavery.
The Emancipation Proclamation was, at the time, largely a political move.  Lincoln's only initial goal was to preserve the Union; there's a rather famous quote of his where he says that he would willingly let slavery continue if it would preserve the Union.  Of course it wouldn't have, since at least for Georgia, one of the reasons for seceding was that a Republican President was elected at all.

Anyway, during the Civil War, there was great concern in the North over whether the so-called "Border States" would secede.  These were, at first, Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware, and Maryland.  West Virginia could be added to this group later; it didn't become a state until 1863, when it broke away from Virginia and returned to the Union.  All three of the original border states were slave-holding, and Lincoln could not risk alienating them and potentially driving them to the Confederacy, especially Maryland.  Washington, D. C., you may remember, is on the border of Maryland and Virginia, and was thus directly across the river from enemy territory.  Had Maryland decided to secede, the Union capital would have been surrounded, and its position completely untenable.  This probably wouldn't have resulted in the end of the war, mind, but it would have been a great blow.

It wasn't until later in the war that Lincoln came to believe that freeing the slaves was a worthy war aim in and of itself; he had begun to change his position before writing the Emancipation Proclamation, but IIRC he had not yet fully come around to the hardline abolitionist point of view (he initially favored a slow phasing out of slavery over several decades, as I recall).  The Emancipation Proclamation also served to placate the abolitionists as well, began to shift the North's war aims towards total abolition, and also may have helped dissuade any European power from intervening on the Confederates' side.  Wiki actually has a pretty good article on the whole subject.

In short, the South seceded almost entirely because of slavery, while the North then proceeded to fight a war the South started to preserve the US and suppress the South's rebellion.  Only later did the war end up becoming about slavery as well for the North.

Edited for spelling.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 01:04:32 am by Astronomiya »

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
Urgh, what did I just say!

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
If it weren't about slavery, why write the Emancipation Proclamation at all?

i always understood it was to encourage freed slaves to enlist in the union army.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
My god! Could it be that the Civil War was in fact a much more complicated affair than we amateur historians on an obscure video game modding forum think it was? Is it even remotely conceivable that slavery was a major factor in the war, and yet was also not the sole reason for the war?

That's kinda the point I was making. If the Civil War was solely about slavery the Emancipation Proclamation would have ended slavery in America. The fact that it didn't shows that it was much more complicated than that.
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Offline watsisname

Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
Astronomiya has raised some pretty compelling arguments/evidence that slavery was paramount to (though of course not solely) the cause of conflict; I'm surprised nobody has yet addressed his post.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
My god! Could it be that the Civil War was in fact a much more complicated affair than we amateur historians on an obscure video game modding forum think it was? Is it even remotely conceivable that slavery was a major factor in the war, and yet was also not the sole reason for the war? Surely there's no way we could reach a kind of.... consensus or or.... middle ground so to speak. If we were to do that, we could avoid arguing about the US Civil War for ten pages, and that just wouldn't be in the spirit of HLP!  :(



But seriously I'd go so far as to wager that people at the time of the Civil War weren't even unanimously agreed on what it was about.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
The job of politician needs to be made more attractive to people who would make good politicians. I'm sure anyone who really wanted to make a difference would not be able to deal with all the crap that goes with it. Thus human garbage like this get to the top instead of people with ideals, values, brains, strength and will that should be running things.

There are no great leaders anymore. And I believe that's because instead of having their every move picked over by the press, they were left to quietly get on with the job and assemble men of talent around them and get things done. There wouldn't be all these power hungry people around then because they'd be outnumbered and dealt with by people who actually wanted to make a difference.

Someone could be the best politician in the World, but thanks to the image politicians get these days, they'd be thought of as scum by the majority anyway, and others would likely steal any achievements they made. Great peple don't brag about their accomplishments, they just get on with it. No one knows the names of any of the real great people in this World, the inventors, the modernisers, the revolutionisers, the philanthropists. But they know the names of celebrities.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
The job of politician needs to be made more attractive to people who would make good politicians. I'm sure anyone who really wanted to make a difference would not be able to deal with all the crap that goes with it. Thus human garbage like this get to the top instead of people with ideals, values, brains, strength and will that should be running things.

There are no great leaders anymore. And I believe that's because instead of having their every move picked over by the press, they were left to quietly get on with the job and assemble men of talent around them and get things done. There wouldn't be all these power hungry people around then because they'd be outnumbered and dealt with by people who actually wanted to make a difference.

You should read some newspapers from 1776.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Rick Santorum Commits Political Suicide
The job of politician needs to be made more attractive to people who would make good politicians. I'm sure anyone who really wanted to make a difference would not be able to deal with all the crap that goes with it. Thus human garbage like this get to the top instead of people with ideals, values, brains, strength and will that should be running things.

There are no great leaders anymore. And I believe that's because instead of having their every move picked over by the press, they were left to quietly get on with the job and assemble men of talent around them and get things done. There wouldn't be all these power hungry people around then because they'd be outnumbered and dealt with by people who actually wanted to make a difference.

You should read some newspapers from 1776.



I do not know what happened in 1776. But I do know there are plenty of brutal tyrants in history. And the World was a harsher place.

EDIT: American Revolution. I could have guessed. I have no idea what you might be referring to in the papers though. I'm English btw.

I don't think I did as good a job with that initial post as I would like, although I did edit it after your post. What I'm saying is people who get good things done, they do it quietly. No one is shoving cameras and microphones into the faces of scientists and inventors. They're just left to get on with it quietly and they produce results. Now with the current political structure, we DO need to keep an eye on them, I'm not suggesting don't. But I just can't imagine any of the great thinkers or doers of this World wanting to be a politician for these reasons.

 

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