[General Battuta]

The comparison and meaning does not typically make sense - the majority of the time it's used in this context is as a synonym for "defeated" or "victimized."  The word rape holds neither of those denotative meanings.  "Murdered" does not carry additional connotative meaning in the phrasing you used beyond that which it would carry when I say "John Kennedy was murdered."  Meaning is the same.

As for subversion of the term, using rape in the context under discussion very much does subvert or belittle it's meaning.  It compares a loss at an entertainment activity to a crime which disproportionately affects one part of the populace and is based on power dynamics.  Here's food for though - isn't it interesting that people are using a word that describes a crime of power imbalance in a manner that reduces the power of the word itself?

As Batts pointed out, there are a large number of people who are unconcerned with or condone rape.  This ranges from college campuses to military armies.  Rape is a power weapon, and it is absolutely considered acceptable by some people.  Rape is not a universal crime like murder - rape is a crime of power dynamics, perpetrated in order to have power over and subjugate another person.  It is not exclusively women who are affected by the term, though they are definitely disproportionately represented.  A lot of that has to do with inherent power imbalances between males and females, and the history of rape - the "she asked for it" phenomenon that still exists in a lot of countries today.  The fact that you consider this not to be your problem just goes to show how little you really understand the issue and how immature about it you're being.

Having several good friends who have been seriously sexually-assaulted, I find your lack of compassion or willingness to consider any viewpoint other than your own selfish desire to say whatever you please with no regard for other people contemptuous.  You have the right to say whatever you please as far as I'm concerned, but it says more about your own character than anything else.  This, if anything, is what I would remind our younger forumites about - remember when you speak that you really don't know who your audience is.

EDIT:  Sorry Batts =)

Oof, I know cheerleading is really annoying and generally frowned upon, but I just want to frame that post.

A lot of the problems with trivializing rape lie in the fact that there is no universal condemnation of the act. Rape is used as punishment (particularly for gay women) or as recreation. Women are considered to 'deserve' rape if they dress provocatively, get drunk, or flirt. Some people believe that a married woman cannot be raped by her husband. On American college campuses, fraternities pass around tips on how to date rape women, since it's not really rape if they're stoned or smashed and can't say no, right?

And women who survive rape have to live with the belief that it actually is their fault, that they've been damaged or sullied by the act, and that the best course of action they can take is to harm or kill themselves. It doesn't matter how strong or confident they are - they receive these messages from society and from history.

Men, too, have to deal with feelings of shame and compromised manhood, and this is something that absolutely needs to be recognized.

[Nuke]

man, trashman is really getting raped in this debate.

[Beskargam]

on that note. At uni now, rape and consent and being drunk keeps being brought up by the administration. We had a lecture on it at the start of the year. One of the themes we are repeatedly told is that the victim is not at fault (I agree with that).  However do females have a hand in/responsibility for not placing themselves in positions of vulnerability;i.e. do not get wasted at a party with people you don't know well? In a perfect world, people would not take advantage of that vulnerability, but life does not work like that. So they should not have to, but practically it is a  valid idea? I feel like this is a murky area, where both sides can be responsible, but then it falls under the "she was asking for it", or "she dressed slutty" blah blah it's the victim's fault mentality, which isn't ok. So is a situation is clearly different than the afore mentioned girl walking to her car in the dark, where if someone was to take advantage of that, then the advantage taker is clearly at fault there. Question is how is the line drawn in such a situation?

[TrashMan]

sensitivity and respect is never about how the speaker sees the words. it's about how the listeners see the words.

And I'm supposed to care about every possible listener and every possible gripe they might have?

And I'd say how I see the word is just as important. There's two poeple in a conversation and neither is superior to another.

The comparison and meaning does not typically make sense - the majority of the time it's used in this context is as a synonym for "defeated" or "victimized."  The word rape holds neither of those denotative meanings.  "Murdered" does not carry additional connotative meaning in the phrasing you used beyond that which it would carry when I say "John Kennedy was murdered."  Meaning is the same.

Maybe it didn't, but it seems like it does now.
Also, the word "rape" in the mentioned context indicated brutality. A sense of violation.

As for subversion of the term, using rape in the context under discussion very much does subvert or belittle it's meaning.  It compares a loss at an entertainment activity to a crime which disproportionately affects one part of the populace and is based on power dynamics.  Here's food for though - isn't it interesting that people are using a word that describes a crime of power imbalance in a manner that reduces the power of the word itself?

I don't see how it reduces the power of the word just because it can be used in more ways than one. The original meaning or usage isn't lost.
Unless you think that if every time the word is used it should produce pain and anguish, otherwise it somehow looses it's "power"?
How does rape become any less disgusting an act, just because someone uses the wrod in a manner you dont' like?

It's all a perception. An illusion.

The fact that you consider this not to be your problem just goes to show how little you really understand the issue and how immature about it you're being.

Because the act and crime, and usage of the word are the exact same problem? Yeah..nice strawmen. But I never said women getting raped isn't my problem. My objection was only on the usage of the word.
and if oyu think you cna handwave everything and take on the position of moral and intelectual superiority by labeling dissenters as immature...ncie try. I aint' impressed.

Having several good friends who have been seriously sexually-assaulted, I find your lack of compassion or willingness to consider any viewpoint other than your own selfish desire to say whatever you please with no regard for other people contemptuous.  You have the right to say whatever you please as far as I'm concerned, but it says more about your own character than anything else.  This, if anything, is what I would remind our younger forumites about - remember when you speak that you really don't know who your audience is.

I find your hihg-and-mighty zealot of righteounsess attitude contemtuous. Guess that makes us even.

I do not lack compassion or willingness to see other peopels viewpoint. I just draw a reasonable line as to how much I cater to them, and also when and where such words are spoken and said.
And this beign the internet (and HLP), I see no great need to unnecessarily censor myself.

[TrashMan]

on that note. At uni now, rape and consent and being drunk keeps being brought up by the administration.

Wait...rape at your campus happens often? Dear lord...what kind of uni are you going to?

[Beskargam]

I did not say it happened often. I said it was brought up by the administration. I assume most Uni's have a similar trend/program by the administration.  I could not give figures on how often it happens. I go to Indiana University, If that sheds any light on anything at all (I do not think it will?).

edit:

I don't see how it reduces the power of the word just because it can be used in more ways than one. The original meaning or usage isn't lost.
Unless you think that if every time the word is used it should produce pain and anguish, otherwise it somehow looses it's "power"?
How does rape become any less disgusting an act, just because someone uses the wrod in a manner you dont' like?

It's all a perception. An illusion.

I would disagree with this. Before in this thread, the use of word "retarded" was mentioned. I, and I think many of my generation have come to use the term to mean "stupid" or "ridiculous". I very much think that this ignorant usage of the word belittles the actual meaning and what it was originally intended for. Though I cannot claim to be innocent of using this word incorectly

[General Battuta]

Rape is common on college campuses, and most rapes are never reported (16% is the figure commonly cited for the number that are reported.) 25% of college-age women report having experienced a rape or rape attempt since age 14.

I don't know why you're surprised. The statistics for Beskargam's college are probably very similar to wherever in the world you live.

[Nuke]

'nigger' is not a term of endearment

it is if youre black.

[MP-Ryan]

The reporting rate for all sexual assaults is about 2% of actual crimes committed (jurisdiction-dependent, I see Batts just cited 16% which may be true in his case).  It is a common crime everywhere, not just at post-secondary institutions, though they tend to have a better awareness of it.

Regarding "victim blaming."  The victim is never at fault, and in most circumstances sexual assaults are motivated by opportunity, ability, and power.  Physical appearance plays a very minor role in most sexual assaults.  It is every person's right to be able to go where they please in public wearing whatever they please and not feel threatened or harassed, or be criminally victimized. That said - I've mentioned before that I work in law enforcement.  This is where I tend to be at loggerheads with most campus advocacy groups - everyone has a responsibility for their own safety.  There is a difference between acknowledging your right to do something, and realizing that doing it may have consequences because other people are not respectful of that right.  I would never blame a victim of rape for enticing it; but I do advocate to everyone I know, particularly females in the context of this discussion, to take measures to keep themselves safe.  That means not getting drunk in an unfamiliar place without people you can trust to remain as a group.  That means not going on a date with someone you just met without telling anyone where you're going, who with, and when you'll be back.  That means setting clear boundaries in person interactions - it means expressing that you're not consenting.  That means not accepting a drink that you didn't see poured at a frat party from some guy who just walked up to you.  And it means being conscious of where you are, what you're doing, who you're with, what you're wearing, what signals you're sending (I mean overt, not implied), and where you should be.

This is the trouble that a lot of men in particular have when it comes to "victim blaming."  What they mean is to express concern for safety, not imply that because someone didn't take those steps they deserved what happened to them.

As I used to scold a number of my female friends:  You can have all the legal rights in the world, but if you don't take responsibility for your own safety then someone, somewhere, is going to think they can take them from you.

[TrashMan]

Rape is common on college campuses, and most rapes are never reported (16% is the figure commonly cited for the number that are reported.) 25% of college-age women report having experienced a rape or rape attempt since age 14.

I don't know why you're surprised. The statistics for Beskargam's college are probably very similar to wherever in the world you live.

Can't say I heard of such incidents on my college.
Heard it happening overall (the city, and the country), but no where near the numbers you give. Different places, differnt cultures?
According to your stats, it's an epidemic and every second women has apprently been...<retracted>.
And you know what they say about statistics....

[General Battuta]

Can't say I heard of such incidents on my college.

That's exactly the problem - now you're catching on.

[MP-Ryan]

And I'd say how I see the word is just as important. There's two poeple in a conversation and neither is superior to another.

I'm not getting into the rest of your post because it's already been addressed ad nausem, but I do want to highlight this tidbit.

The listener in an exchange of information is always superior to the speaker.  The speaker conveys meaning, while the listener attempts to interpret it.  More information is always gleaned or inferred from listening rather than speaking.  How the speaker perceives the conversation is absolutely irrelevant, as they are not the person interpreting the meaning of what is being said.  The words a speaker chooses say a great deal about the speaker based on how the listener interprets those words.

By way of example, if I think I'm being brilliant in all my posts it doesn't really matter - it's what the people reading them think of both the meaning I convey and the means by which I convey it that is actually relevant.

[Beskargam]

Regarding "victim blaming."  The victim is never at fault, and in most circumstances sexual assaults are motivated by opportunity, ability, and power.  Physical appearance plays a very minor role in most sexual assaults.  It is every person's right to be able to go where they please in public wearing whatever they please and not feel threatened or harassed, or be criminally victimized. That said - I've mentioned before that I work in law enforcement.  This is where I tend to be at loggerheads with most campus advocacy groups - everyone has a responsibility for their own safety.  There is a difference between acknowledging your right to do something, and realizing that doing it may have consequences because other people are not respectful of that right.  I would never blame a victim of rape for enticing it; but I do advocate to everyone I know, particularly females in the context of this discussion, to take measures to keep themselves safe.  That means not getting drunk in an unfamiliar place without people you can trust to remain as a group.  That means not going on a date with someone you just met without telling anyone where you're going, who with, and when you'll be back.  That means setting clear boundaries in person interactions - it means expressing that you're not consenting.  That means not accepting a drink that you didn't see poured at a frat party from some guy who just walked up to you.  And it means being conscious of where you are, what you're doing, who you're with, what you're wearing, what signals you're sending (I mean overt, not implied), and where you should be.

This is the trouble that a lot of men in particular have when it comes to "victim blaming."  What they mean is to express concern for safety, not imply that because someone didn't take those steps they deserved what happened to them.

As I used to scold a number of my female friends:  You can have all the legal rights in the world, but if you don't take responsibility for your own safety then someone, somewhere, is going to think they can take them from you.

Thanks that answers my question perfectly. and you summarized the issue I have had with expressing that question. I Think my college does not hold individuals responsible they are drunk, but I disagree and think that individuals do have responsibility for keeping themselves out of dangerous situations essentialy

[TrashMan]

'nigger' is not a term of endearment

it is if youre black.

Among pals, such "nicknames" are rather common.

Me and my bud sometiems treat eachother with such names.
"Hey asshole, where you've been? I've been waiting for you."
"Hey faggot. Got delayed. What's up?"

F'course, it's all in good fun.

[MP-Ryan]

Thanks that answers my question perfectly. and you summarized the issue I have had with expressing that question. I Think my college does not hold individuals responsible they are drunk, but I disagree and think that individuals do have responsibility for keeping themselves out of dangerous situations essentialy

Careful though; just because I say that people should take responsibility for their own safety seriously does not mean I am implying that a person has been irresponsible if they have not done so and have been subsequently sexually assaulted.  That's an important part of the understanding.

What we're talking about here is measures to prevent yourself from being victimized, which may or may not actually work in a given situation.  It's important to keep that distinct from talking about actual cases where people have been victimized after the fact.  The short versions is "Take your safety seriously to try to protect yourself, but an assault is never, ever, your fault."

[TrashMan]

Can't say I heard of such incidents on my college.

That's exactly the problem - now you're catching on.

Absence of evidence proves what exaclty? That the numbers here and there are the same? Doubt it.
Not saying there isn't unreported rape, but  I dobut it's even near the same percentage as wherever you got your stats from.

[Beskargam]

Thanks that answers my question perfectly. and you summarized the issue I have had with expressing that question. I Think my college does not hold individuals responsible they are drunk, but I disagree and think that individuals do have responsibility for keeping themselves out of dangerous situations essentialy

Careful though; just because I say that people should take responsibility for their own safety seriously does not mean I am implying that a person has been irresponsible if they have not done so and have been subsequently sexually assaulted.  That's an important part of the understanding.

What we're talking about here is measures to prevent yourself from being victimized, which may or may not actually work in a given situation.  It's important to keep that distinct from talking about actual cases where people have been victimized after the fact.  The short versions is "Take your safety seriously to try to protect yourself, but an assault is never, ever, your fault."

Sorry that is what i meant. I understand the distinction, I am just less eloquent about the phrasing and making the distinction clear.

[General Battuta]

Can't say I heard of such incidents on my college.

That's exactly the problem - now you're catching on.

Absence of evidence proves what exaclty? That the numbers here and there are the same? Doubt it.
Not saying there isn't unreported rape, but  I dobut it's even near the same percentage as wherever you got your stats from.

You're right - it's probably higher. (Of course, in the absence of evidence, we assume the null of no difference, and the US Department of Justice has quite reliable statistics.)

It's not surprising that you're unaware of the prevalence of sexual assault, as man without (it seems) much exposure to women -- but that doesn't mean it's not present.

[TrashMan]

The listener in an exchange of information is always superior to the speaker.  The speaker conveys meaning, while the listener attempts to interpret it.  More information is always gleaned or inferred from listening rather than speaking.  How the speaker perceives the conversation is absolutely irrelevant, as they are not the person interpreting the meaning of what is being said.  The words a speaker chooses say a great deal about the speaker based on how the listener interprets those words.

By way of example, if I think I'm being brilliant in all my posts it doesn't really matter - it's what the people reading them think of both the meaning I convey and the means by which I convey it that is actually relevant.

I can only go so far with conveying a meaning concisely.
And while I am perfectly capable of conveying the basic meaning, the subtexts is not something I have much control over, as it depends too much on what the listener feels, thinks and percieves - and I'm not in the mind reading buisness.

If i were to say "Lucas raped my childhood memories with his new trilogy", the meaning is rather clear.
If someone want to interpret it as me beign deliberatly mean or whatever, I got no control over that and I don't really care, since they are projecting and extrapolating beyond the original meaning.

[TrashMan]

You're right - it's probably higher. (Of course, in the absence of evidence, we assume the null of no difference, and the US Department of Justice has quite reliable statistics.)

Of course. God bless america. The greatest country in the world. Surely other countries MUST have more sexual deviants and predators! Becasue everyone must be as obsessed with sex as we are!

It's not surprising that you're unaware of the prevalence of sexual assault, as man without (it seems) much exposure to women -- but that doesn't mean it's not present.

I'm aware and you're missing my point.