[General Battuta]

At risk of looking like a tool...

I'm no psychiatrist or psychologist, and I don't claim to be. However, I do have some basic ASIST (Applied Suicide Interventions Skills Training), and spent a couple of years in high school acting as a member of a group of students with the training, trying to help those of our peers planning to commit suicide to not do so, and to get them to local supports as much as possible.

Now I would be lying if I said that the procedures always worked, or that the local support was always what the person needed, or that I have more than a shallow working knowledge of the science. But I can say with conviction that no person can truly accurately weigh the pros and cons of living vs. dying for themselves, especially when one's state of mind is depressed or otherwise pointed towards suicide.

Much like what Battuta just mentioned, logic really isn't part of it. Logic, given the right assumptions, can justify suicide with almost no effort. I saw that fact over and over again with suicidal individuals I worked with.

not empty quotin this

[MP-Ryan]

I've changed my mind from the education-related threads based on what I'm reading here - basic psychology should be a mandatory course of study for everyone.

The rush to medication without accompanying interpersonal treatment methods is not ideal for patient outcomes - prescription pads alone are a bad thing - but depression is fundamentally a chemical illness.  Modern anti-anxiety and anti-depression medications do work extremely well for the majority of patients.  The trouble arises when these drugs are prescribed by general practitioners (medical doctors) without accompanying follow-up by a psychologist or psychiatrist (FYI, two different professions folks; psychiatrists can prescribe medications, psychologists can't).

A huge proportion of the population suffers from depression, be it mild, moderate, or severe, at some point in their lives.  The majority of people will experience it, if they have not already (though it is predominantly expressed in your teens and early twenties).  A number of people here have pointed out that they've experienced it; I've also experienced a mild case myself about 12 years ago.  Depression is a treatable, physical illness.  This kid can claim logic all he likes, but Battuta is correct - it's not logic, it's rationalization.  Cleverly-written, perhaps, but its still rationalization.  It's also not that surprising as depression tends to disproportionately affect people that score higher in intelligence tests.

It's also not surprising in the slightest that most people around this kid didn't notice anything amiss - typically, suicide most commonly occurs as depression is getting better.  It's one of the tragic ironies of 2nd gen SSRIs and even some of the most modern anti-depressants - they so effectively address depression that they move patients rapidly from severe depression (where the ability of an individual to form and carryout planning processes is suspended) to mild depression (where the core depression still exists, but plan-forming and action cognitive processes re-establish themselves).  Most suicide do not occur in severely depressed people, but rather in mildly-depressed people who are actually getting better.  How irrational is that?  This kid was most likely severely depressed (which family may have noticed), then appear to get better and return to normal - which wasn't really a return to normal, but a rationalization that enabled him to form a plan for suicide and carry it out.

Also, psychoanalysis is bull****.  Psychotherapy (counseling) as a whole is not, but Freud's nonsense has been pretty thoroughly discredited as a medium for treatment of any kind of mental illness.

[Flipside]

Having spent a lot of my life suffering from very large, almost bi-polar swings between moods, yes, I'd tend to agree that the worse phase is 'dawn', when you are just waking up from a low phase. When you are at your full-on depressed phase, you don't actually care enough to kill yourself, but when you are on the way out, you realise what you have just been through and that, thanks to the nature of many depressions, you'll be heading back there soon.

To be honest, I should probably have been on anti-depressants since my father died, but I've found an odd thing happening as you approach 40, in that you start thinking 'Sod it, I've got maybe 30-40 years left, and that'll pass before I know it, so we're all committing suicide faster than we think anyway.". Not cheerful, but it becomes more painfully true as time passes.

Thing is, there is a greater and greater reliance on chemical means to treat a chemical imbalance, my experience in the UK is that it is a lot cheaper and faster to prescribe pills than to go through the entire psychologist waiting list, which can take up to a year. It's a weakness in the NHS to be honest, we have vast numbers of people off work with long-term depression, because depression is merely treated like eczema, it just needs the psychological equivalent of Savlon.

[zookeeper]

Suicide is not a matter of logic at all. Logic is a process, a tool. At some point you need to establish axioms and operate on data external to the system. You can't determine the value of life from first principles.

e: An 'intelligent boy' could conclude, logically, 'I am miserable, and I do not see any way to alleviate my misery, so it is better to die than to live in misery'. That's logical. But he's feeding in external data which is not determined by logic - 'I'm miserable', or 'entropy will devour everything', or 'the impermanence of all effort makes effort futile' - and his 'rational' systems are inevitably tainted by affective processes.

If you start from the right assumptions you can logically justify just about anything.

Well, all I was really saying was that as far as I'm concerned, suicide isn't always a bad thing and that I don't know enough about this particular case to be able to say whether I think it was a good or a bad decision.

[perihelion]

Poll needs another option: "I don't know, but I choose to act as if it is worth living in the hopes of positive reinforcement."

Right now, it feels like I'm stuck in the Red Queen's Race for the last five years.  But then again, I've got two young kids, my wife has zero sex drive while she's nursing, and I'm surviving on such a minimal amount of (frequently interrupted) sleep that it shouldn't be any surprise that I'm not exuding enthusiasm for life out of every pore right now.  In fact, the next person that tries to "cheer me up" is getting a steel-toed boot to the head.

Mostly, I stay perpetually annoyed because it is less debilitating than feeling helpless.  You can endure a surprising amount of bull**** with enough piss and vinegar.

*You know what, nevermind, ignore all that.  Really, this is all just venting, not serious or even worthwhile advice.  I just can so clearly remember a time when my answer would have been an emphatic, "Hell yes!  Life is definitely worth living," and I'd really like to be back there again.  I'm just ****ING TIRED OF BEING TIRED.  And intellectually, I can even stand back and look at this post and realize it is just attention whoring and not worth posting, but I wrote it, it is written, so there it is.

[General Battuta]

And intellectually, I can even stand back and look at this post and realize it is just attention whoring and not worth posting, but I wrote it, it is written, so there it is.

Talking about feeling beat down is important. It's not attention whoring.

[MP-Ryan]

I'm just ****ING TIRED OF BEING TIRED.

Amen.  My little guy turns 6 months in a week and, while sleep is getting better, I still spend the majority of my day exhausted.  I'm not even the one getting up at night to feed him either.  I seriously suspect the reason that early childhood seems such a blur to parents is because if you remembered it all in vivid detail, no one would ever voluntarily have more than one child =)

[bigchunk1]

If you start from the right assumptions you can logically justify just about anything.

Proof that life is worth living:
Lemma: We must show a human life is not wasteful.

Assumption1: Time is infinite denoted T

Assumption2: Human life expectancy is finite denoted H

Since infinity minus a finite constant is infinity we note that T - H = T

Therefore the amount of time a human spends dead is unaffected by the decision to continue living.
We conclude a human life is not wasteful.

Proof: We must show life is worth living.

Assumption3: The quality of existence is defined as the summation of the absolute values of all experiences. Let Q denote the total quality of existence in a human life.
Q = |e1| + |e2| +|e3|+ ...+|en|             
where e1 is experience 1 and n is the number of experiences in a human's life.

Assumption4: The quality of existence without consciousness is 0.

Assumption5: A quality of existence at 0 is the most undesirable level of quality.

As the time of a human life moves from 0 to H, a human will accumulate a number of experiences, each experience bringing Q to a greater value.
|e1| < |e1|+|e2| < |e1|+|e2|+|e3|<...< |e1|+|e2|+|e3|+...+|en| where n represents the number of experiences in a human's life.

By our lemma, since a human life is not wasteful a human ought to live as long as possible to accumulate as many experiences as possible to raise quality of life Q.

We conclude by saying that all the experiences a human has through their first steps, the emotional ties they have with one another, intellectual stimulation, and the purposeful experience of assisting others makes life worth living.

[esarai]

Article is tl;dr, but from what I gather here it's going on about the futility of all life.  We're all going to die some day, let's just be up front about it.  Death is a nagging ****tard we can't escape from.  Yet it's not going to kill everyone all at once.  This is where I have issue with such arguments is that they focus solely on the individual; it is the epitome of arrogance to state that life is not worth living, for it gives no thought to the totality of the work of the human race.  Alone, the human is meaningless, and will die unnoticed.  When brought together, what one does for benefit can be enjoyed by others, and the value of action multiplies, lasting throughout time, each little bit adding to our legacy, making it ever greater. 

And then comes the (supposed) end of the universe.  But what the hell, that's gonna happen at t = infinity, so I give no ****s.

Also, word, bigchunk1, word.

[Dilmah G]

Mate, I don't think the totality of the work of the human race plays much of a role when you're feeling ten feet below ****. I'll spare you my lengthy opinion and simply recommend you read the article - I think you missed the mark a little, here.

[esarai]

Okay, just did, shorter than anticipated.  I thought they would launch into his logic and what not, and it'd be like 5 pages long.  Surprisingly they don't mention his actual thought process at all (unless I missed something, likely), at which point I must agree with Battman, this was definitely rationalization, and I am definitely off the mark.

I guess people can just read the above and know it is my ladder for climbing out of the well.  I've been down there before, that got me out, and (I hope) will keep me from falling back.

[Ghostavo]

If you start from the right assumptions you can logically justify just about anything.

Proof that life is worth living:
Lemma: We must show a human life is not wasteful.

Assumption1: Time is infinite denoted T

Assumption2: Human life expectancy is finite denoted H

Since infinity minus a finite constant is infinity we note that T - H = T

Therefore the amount of time a human spends dead is unaffected by the decision to continue living.
We conclude a human life is not wasteful.

Proof: We must show life is worth living.

Assumption3: The quality of existence is defined as the summation of the absolute values of all experiences. Let Q denote the total quality of existence in a human life.
Q = |e1| + |e2| +|e3|+ ...+|en|             
where e1 is experience 1 and n is the number of experiences in a human's life.

Assumption4: The quality of existence without consciousness is 0.

Assumption5: A quality of existence at 0 is the most undesirable level of quality.

As the time of a human life moves from 0 to H, a human will accumulate a number of experiences, each experience bringing Q to a greater value.
|e1| < |e1|+|e2| < |e1|+|e2|+|e3|<...< |e1|+|e2|+|e3|+...+|en| where n represents the number of experiences in a human's life.

By our lemma, since a human life is not wasteful a human ought to live as long as possible to accumulate as many experiences as possible to raise quality of life Q.

We conclude by saying that all the experiences a human has through their first steps, the emotional ties they have with one another, intellectual stimulation, and the purposeful experience of assisting others makes life worth living.

Assumption 5, after reading assumption 4, is somewhat of a leap. You are also assuming that every experience is positive. And while I applaud your hatred of sleep, I'm not sure many people will do so.

[perihelion]

Assumption3: The quality of existence is defined as the summation of the absolute values of all experiences. Let Q denote the total quality of existence in a human life.
Q = |e1| + |e2| +|e3|+ ...+|en|             
where e1 is experience 1 and n is the number of experiences in a human's life.

You are taking the absolute value of "en."  That forces negative and positive experiences to both have positive weight in the accumulation of "quality of existence."  Not sure I agree with that.  One can envision the most horridly painful existence imaginable and it would still be considered "positive" in light of this equation, when I would not consider that to be the case at all.  If your sum total of existence is one accumulated misery after another, wouldn't your net quality of existence be negative?

Note: I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, as I do appreciate the sentiment, bigchunk1.

Amen.  My little guy turns 6 months in a week and, while sleep is getting better, I still spend the majority of my day exhausted.  I'm not even the one getting up at night to feed him either.  I seriously suspect the reason that early childhood seems such a blur to parents is because if you remembered it all in vivid detail, no one would ever voluntarily have more than one child =)

Every child is different, and every relationship is unique.  But I think the exhaustion of the first couple years, for the parents at least, must be universal or near enough as makes no odds.  Some parents are just better at putting a good face on it.  Me, I'm too exhausted to care.  Mama is at least as bad off if not worse, seeing as she'll sleep right through baby₂ waking up and crying.  Going upstairs and fetching him is my job.

Nights like last night are particularly bad because there was a huge storm blowing through complete w/ tornado warnings.  Baby₂ was already asleep, and I had to wake him up to bring him downstairs.  He didn't go back to sleep for quite awhile because the whole night-time routine was blown.  Baby₁, in the meantime, never got to sleep in the first place and was freaking out about the howling wind and rain.  She wouldn't / couldn't calm down until I gave in and let her sleep in our bed.  But between the two of them setting each other off, I ended up retreating to the couch.  Again.  FML.

[potterman28wxcv]

Life looks boring when the way not to be bored hasn't been found. I mean, it is necessary that life will always be the same (except some events) ; but to humans, there is always a way to find an occupation.

As a rule, these occupations would be listed as follow :
-> keeping up some relations between you and friends - it can either be by having a trip, or by playing some MMO game -
-> having some challenges (it can be sports, mathematics, informatic (developing, modeling), or whatever (like stitching  ) )
-> diving in some universes (game, films, books..)
-> this is not exhaustive

However, I think there must be a good balance between each of them ; the aim is not to feel yourself useless, and to always have something to do (assuming that doing nothing can be an activity  )

[Mikes]

15, impressionable age, and the mention of "logic" ... it would be interesting to find out what kind of stuff he has been reading, whom he has been talking to on- and offline, et cetera.

[deathfun]

Depression is a tragic, treatable mental illness. The treatment is sometimes very simple - exercise, social contact, meaningful work - and sometimes nearly impossible. The human mind is incapable of purely rational thought, and this young person's decision to kill himself had nothing to do with 'rationality'. If he'd just lived a few years longer he probably* would've been fine.

Exercise... check
Social contact... check
Meaningful work... check

No improvement in the fracture state of mind

If you are depressed, you must let yourself talk about it. It's an incredibly common condition and nothing to be ashamed of, but it is also not something you should tell yourself is normal or logical. Depression colors every thought and action you take in ways that will seem impossible once you're out of the soup. Depression induces learned helplessness - a mental morass that traps you in the same self-destructive behaviors.

Talk about it... check
And yet here I am, even after admitting what I did here, not feeling any bit different. Hand me a gun and I'll demonstrate that

Psychiatrists and drugs don't need to be your first step. Talk to your friends and family. Encourage them to check in on you constantly and to work with you to kick you out of bad habits. Go to the gym with a partner, on a routine schedule. Find ways to pare down chronic stress - if you're a student, or in economic trouble, this is unfortunately going to be a big contributing factor.

Bad habits? I wake up, have breakfast, enjoy a little gaming, go to work, finish work, come back, watch some television or animate, play games, go to bed, repeat
On my day's I have off, I generally stay one day in the house, and the other doing stuff out and about, either with friends or just myself. I'm on a very routine schedule. I know exactly what I'm doing at precise times in the day. I'm neither stressed nor in any economic trouble

And yet my frame of mind is still the same from a year ago

If you have a friend who was mentioned suicidal thoughts and suddenly cheers up, keep an eye on him or her. This can be a sign that they've worked out a suicide plan and have committed to it.

The one thing I can agree to

[Spoon]

Being atheist is suffering.


...
I'll get my coat.

[LordPomposity]

Being atheist is suffering.


...
I'll get my coat.

No, that's okay. This thread would be improved by derailing into a religion ****slog.

[MP-Ryan]

No, that's okay. This thread would be improved by derailing into a religion ****slog.

QFFT.

[General Battuta]

No, that's okay. This thread would be improved by derailing into a religion ****slog.

preach it, brutha